Combat Archery at NAAMA 2007

[NigelT]

Hello all,

We will be running combat archery at NAAMA 2007. We're in the process of putting together some basic rules for armour, arrows, and conduct.

Firstly who would be interested in participating either as an archer or as a target? We will try and integrate archery into regular melee combat where we can rather than just have people stand and get shot.

Secondly, do you have any thoughts on what sort of rules you might like to see, things you have seen work elsewhere, etc?

Thirdly, any ideas for games or variations on existing combat themes that we could do? Ideas so far - include archery and siege weaponry in melee attacks on and defense of the fort, 'archery paint-ball' in the trees, use of archers in general melee combat.



Obviously there are going to be additional armour requirements - specifically around face protection. There are a number of options, depending on how arrows are being fired - ranging from volley fire, where melee combatants are warned and look down or cover their heads, to full-face, mesh visors, or safety glasses to protect the eyes if arrows are being fired ad-hoc.

If there is sufficient interest we may consider making a large quantity of cheap combat arrows with the appropriate blunts and selling them to archers at camp.


Nigel

[Angel]

You might want to check out the Kingdom of Lochac (SCA) combat archery rules for Australia and New Zealand.

They work, and they make combat incredibly fun.

They can be found here
http://www.sca.org.au/marshal/docs/fighters-handbook-2.pdf

[Kath]

And back of neck/throat protection

[NigelT]

Thanks for that link Angel. I was intending on basing a draft set of rules heavily on the work the SCA has done. There are possibly some variations that could be put in place to allow for different scenarios, but for the most part the SCA safety requirements are a good place to start.

I have some questions that you may be able to answer, having played with the SCA archers for a while -

* I take it the requirement for arrows to be made out of Port Orford Cedar, Ramen, Silver Ash or Tasmanian Oak and then be bound in fibreglass filament tape is to ensure that the arrows withstand more rugged use and reduce the chance or broken arrows producing sharp points that could cause injury? Is this overkill for the american liability market or is this something we need to be really vigilant with? For example, if we were to make arrows out of pine dowel and not wrap them are we really running much risk (aside from losing a lot of arrows to being trodden on)?

* The SCA mesh visor requirements are fairly heavy duty, but there is no clear distinction between what is needed for heavy combat and what is needed for combat with arrows. I am assuming that most of the heavyness in this specification is to protect from the likes of spears and swords? There obviously has to be a requirement for visor or eye protection of some sort, but it would seem that with a blunted 30lb arrow we could possibly use slightly lighter mesh? I don't want this to sound like I'm taking shortcuts. I am aware that cost and bulk is a factor and if we can safely use lighter visors it will improve the experience for all involved.

* The maximum draw weight specified is 30lb. I agree with this. Is there any reason for example that a 40lb bow couldn't be used with a deliberately shortened arrow that could only be drawn to 30lbs, provided this was checked by marshals to be the case beforehand? I guess this does become an issue if people start using each others arrows.

* Is there anything special about 'Riverhaven' blunts or would a similar rubber blunt that matched the diameter, density, and rubber thickness do, provided it had been tested as safe?

* Apparently there are many groups in England and Europe using arrows in combat without visors by announcing an archery volley before lobbing arrows into the combat. This gives combatants time to raise their shields and / or tilt their helms towards the ground to avoid possible injury from open-faced helms. This would seem like a reasonable option for archery use without visors. Any thoughts?


And yes, Kath, neck and throat protection is a very good idea. Do you have any thoughts about helms that don't fully cover the mouth and chin? Can they be safely used provided the eyes and neck are adequately protected? Would an avontail be enough protection in this case? I will do some research into this, but your thoughts would be appreciated given you have done some of this before.

Nigel

[Angel]

[Stuart]

test from Stu

[Stuart]

Hi,

I did a lot of re-enactment archery at mass battles in the UK & Europe.

-Here is what worked. All Arrows to be flu-flu fletched. It slows them down so they can been seen. Rubber blunts to be attached.

No speed blunts ( standard arrows with a blunt ). They fly too fast to see and are dangerious.

Two modes of shoot. Long-distance -volley fire.Loose high in the air
and let them drop.
Short range
( under 75metes ), direct fire to any target below the chest.
It`s considered usual to only shoot on command at short range - and it`s very much a croud pleaser to shoot volley at a shield wall.
Max bow draw is 35 pounds draw weight for short range. Unlimited draw for long distance.

I can teach it and all the defences.

Regards,

Stuart. 021-0496-317

[Chevalier]

[Angel]

I prefer standard arrows with a blunt - use new shafts, no target piles!
If everyone has the right sfaety gear, then not being able to see the sucker before it hits you, makes it so much more realistic.

Sod the public, I do this for my own enjoyment.

[Stuart]

I am going to return to the subject of suitable arrows for combat.
I have no objection to authenticity, but get it wrong with an arrow and you rapidly become authentically dead. In 1984 at the infamous Battle of Hastings walk-through ( rehersal ) I stood next to a big warrior who took a speed blunt full in the throat. It hit the windpipe fracturing it instantly. He fell, and was unable to breath. By chance, two St John`s first aid people were passing and managed to get an airway down his throat. He survived, but it was very close thing. BTW, a speed blunt is an standard arrow shaft with small target feathers.
Several other warriors were injured by these speed blunts and a decision was made by the warriors and English Hertitage ( the show organisers ) to ban them.
A later forensic investigation showed that speed blunts shot from a 35 lb longbow generated sufficient ballistic energy at 25 yards to be legally classified as lethal against unprotected soft tissue. Remember many warriors do not always wear full body armour...Some moderate bow shots were measured as developing power levels equilivant to that of a small rifle bullet. Think of concentrating a flying arrow`s kinetic energy into a small point..It`s a sobering thought.
Flu-flus are better for combat for five reasons:
1 ) The flight path is curved. With a bit of training you can see them coming and raise your shield.
2) The flight profile, thats your end-on view of them- can be optically followed.
3) The impact is hard, but bearable. A flu-flu is going to hurt, but it`s not going to go through you.
4) An over-shot will tend to slow and there is less danger of one of your shots overshooting the target and hitting a bustander - or, if a public display, your crowd.
5) Flu-flus are accurate.
6) They are authentic. Flu-flus were used for hunting birds 1000 years ago.

I think we should put on a demo to the skeptical.

Regards,

Stuart.

[gt1cm2]

http://members.iinet.net.au/~rmine/temp/ca_essentials.html

http://members.iinet.net.au/~rmine/temp/ca_intro2.html

I found these on the ozbow site you may or may not find them helpful.

[Angel]

I think flu-flus are pretty cool, they make the funkiest noise in a volley.

The use of speed blunts in Lochac combat archery is possible because of the safety equipment worn by the potential targets. Full face and throat protection etc...

Minimum range is just 5m, max bow poundage 30lb at 28 inches, max arrow length 28 inches.

You can shoot people in the face, because their face is one of the best protected parts of your target.

I'd rather do combat archery than paintball.

[NigelT]

Thanks Angel, gt1cm2, Stuart, and Chevalier - your feedback is excellent. From what you're all telling me, from reading through the SCA and Grey Company rules, and from other accounts I've heard from people who've done this elsewhere in the world I think there is a lot of agreement on most aspects of safety, construction, etc. I don't see any real point in reinventing the wheel there.

What I will try and look at is how we could incorporate people into fights with different levels of armour. We obviously can't use speed blunts against someone without some sort of face visor and neck protection for example, but we potentially could fire announced volleys into melee battles as a minimum. Moving up from that I see no reason why speed-blunts can't be used provided everyone involved has the required armour... and variations in between may be possible, although I'd rather simplify rather than make rules too complex.

Angel - yes I could be interested in doing a bulk-buy for Riverhaven blunts. I'm also trying to source bulk hardwood dowel and goose feather (preferably free).

A question about face protection - does this have to be a perforated metal or mesh visor built-in to the helmet, or could a reasonably substantial modern safety visor worn under the helmet do the same job? I'm guessing that provided the protection could stand a direct hit and could not be knocked out of place by a side hit, then it would suffice. I'm just wondering if there are options for people who may not want to or cant afford to modify their helms, but could strap something modern on underneath to achieve the same result. Any thoughts?

There seems to be some disagreement over the use of flu-flus or not - this pretty much comes down to armour requirements right? If someone is wearing enough armour they can have a speed-blunt fired at them reasonably safely?

Keep the thoughts rolling in.

In the meantime I'm trying to source the components required to make an appropriate arrow to do some pricing and testing. It would seem more likely that people would participate if they could just turn up and purchase bog-standard combat-arrows rather than have to make their own and risk not meeting standards.

Nigel

[Angel]

[Stuart]

Hi Nigel,


Please be aware that most battles involving archers rapidly become a firefight between opposing archers. Even experienced archers cannot see a speed blunt coming due to the very high inherent
speed of these missiles, and straight trajectory.
Archers usually do not wear armour or helmets , and QED, you have a perfect scenearo for an injury.
Ballistic-wise, speed blunts generate 3x the energy of flu-flus. They are also silent. Speed blunts are not worth the risk. Try testing some and you will see that I am not being cautious. They can kill.

Regards,

Stuart.