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Angel
Site Admin
Location: Wellington
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 Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 8:35 pm |
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| Stuart wrote: |
Please be aware that most battles involving archers rapidly become a firefight between opposing archers. Even experienced archers cannot see a speed blunt coming due to the very high inherent
speed of these missiles, and straight trajectory. |
SCA combat archery is totally free form because you can safely shoot someone anywhere on their body because of the required armour, so the battle continues even as the arrows are flying. Because SCA archers are "slain" if an enemy heavy fighter gets within long weapon range without opposition, the archers are only really effective until the two lines of fighters meet. As soon as a fighter breaks through the line it's his job to run down the archers as quickly as possible.
The joy of using speed blunts in that environment is that people can't really see them coming, they are fast, and have a straight trajectory. You have to watch for the archers loosing, and the good ones can reduce that motion so that you don't know they have fired until the arrow hits your faceplate.
| Stuart wrote: | | Archers usually do not wear armour or helmets , and QED, you have a perfect scenearo for an injury. |
And the SCA armours its combat archers - now to the same minimum standard as the heavy combatants, just in case they are accidentally struck by a heavy combatant.
| Stuart wrote: | Ballistic-wise, speed blunts generate 3x the energy of flu-flus. They are also silent. Speed blunts are not worth the risk. Try testing some and you will see that I am not being cautious. They can kill.
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If you haven't got the right gear, then sure they are dangerous. I personally won't let any arrow be fired at me unless I have all the gear I wear for SCA combat archery. I've heard of significantly more serious injuries from combat archery from groups other than the SCA - I'm pretty sure we haven't killed anyone yet.
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Stuart
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| Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 8:59 pm |
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Hi Angel,
As far as the SCA is concerned, I am sure you are right. But, I am not a member of the SCA and this topic is about NAAMA and like events.
-over to you !
Regards,
Stuart.
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A Dane Axe beats two aces anytime. |
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Angel
Site Admin
Location: Wellington
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| Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 9:08 pm |
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| Stuart wrote: | Hi Angel,
As far as the SCA is concerned, I am sure you are right. But, I am not a member of the SCA and this topic is about NAAMA and like events.
-over to you !
Regards,
Stuart. |
Nigel put out a call for combat archery rules and things we have seen work:
| Quote: | | Secondly, do you have any thoughts on what sort of rules you might like to see, things you have seen work elsewhere, etc? |
The Lochac combat archery rules have things I like, and things that I know work. I really love combat archery at SCA events (you don't even have to be a member to take part) and would love to be able to do the same kind of combat at NAAMA events.
And as far as I'm concerned SCA and NAAMA are like events - medieval stuff happens.
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NigelT
Site Admin
Location: Wellington
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| Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 10:19 am |
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OK, some good points from everyone and I'll take them all on board.
Now I'm really not sure which option is going to be better. I'm probably going to have to er on the side of safety and opt for flu-flus given that most people will want to do the bare minimum to be able to participate and if we make the requirements too stringent we might just not get anyone playing. I like the idea of having two different grades of combat archery though - a 'heavy' grade with speed-blunts for those who meet the armour requirements and a 'light' grade for those who want to use flu-flus and not go all-out.
Angel - are the SCA archerys meeting anytime soon? I'd love to come along and see how it works and take a look at your arrows. Email me off-forum if you like.
Stuart - I hear your warnings about speed-blunts and yes we seem to all agree that they are dangerous and should be used with extreme caution and lots or armour. I don't think we'll be letting the unwashed masses loose with them at NAAMA, but perhaps a select few could do it if suitably skilled and armoured.
Angel - the idea of just strapping on a piece of mesh with shoelaces, cable-ties, etc sounds a bit rudamentary, but you're right, it's easy and cheap to do. And could in theory be fitted over the top of almost any helm... except perhaps a normal nasel, which doesn't have any inherent frame around the eyes... not sure how this might work.
Angel - I'd be keen to get hold of a half a dozen River Haven blunts to make up some test arrows - do you know where I could get some? If all goes well I'll order a lot more.
Oh, one last question. What is this fibre tape that you're wrapping arrows with? Is it something like duct tape? Difficult to know without having seen them - do you know if there are any close-up photos laying around on the web I could peek at? If the arrows are completely wrapped in tape, is there any reason to use wood? Could it be plastic or alloy (which would reduce the chance of breakage and splinters)?
Cheers,
Nigel |
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gt1cm2
Location: Wellington
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| Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 10:53 am |
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| Quote: | | If the arrows are completely wrapped in tape, is there any reason to use wood? Could it be plastic or alloy (which would reduce the chance of breakage and splinters)? |
I imagine plastic arrows would be horrible to shoot and could still break and depending on the plastic it could be more dangerous. Alloy's are very light and fast, remember what happened to my one that would never reach the end of the field (which vanished into thin air)?!!! I'd stay with wood and some kind of fibreglass covering.
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did they beat the drums slowly
did the play the fife lowly
did they sound the death march as they lowered you down
did the band play the last post and chorus
did the pipes play the flowers of the forest |
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Angel
Site Admin
Location: Wellington
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| Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 10:53 am |
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| NigelT wrote: | | Angel - are the SCA archerys meeting anytime soon? I'd love to come along and see how it works and take a look at your arrows. Email me off-forum if you like. |
Unfortunately I have no idea when Darton's next war practice is. I'll let you know. I'll try to remember to bring an arrow to lunch tomorrow
| NigelT wrote: | | Angel - the idea of just strapping on a piece of mesh with shoelaces, cable-ties, etc sounds a bit rudamentary, but you're right, it's easy and cheap to do. And could in theory be fitted over the top of almost any helm... except perhaps a normal nasel, which doesn't have any inherent frame around the eyes... not sure how this might work. |
There can't be any gaps large enough to fit a broken arrow through - and the bars of most peoples face grills make it quite easy to firmly attach the mesh - they are thoroughly checked before you get to go on the field.
| NigelT wrote: | | Angel - I'd be keen to get hold of a half a dozen River Haven blunts to make up some test arrows - do you know where I could get some? If all goes well I'll order a lot more. |
I'll ask our archery guy. I have a set of combat arrows, which you could use - though they need retaping as the fibre tape has degraded.
| NigelT wrote: | | Oh, one last question. What is this fibre tape that you're wrapping arrows with? Is it something like duct tape? Difficult to know without having seen them - do you know if there are any close-up photos laying around on the web I could peek at? If the arrows are completely wrapped in tape, is there any reason to use wood? Could it be plastic or alloy (which would reduce the chance of breakage and splinters)? |
It's usually clear tape with fibres running longitudinally down the tape. Sometimes it's cross-hatched. You still see the wood. Some people use opaque tape - depends what you can get hold of when you are making your arrows. Duct tape isn't the same.
Wood is what has been tested for safety. You want the fact that wood has a solid cross section, and a solid alloy arrow of the same diameter would be relatively heavy, changing the impact. You need sufficient diameter to prevent the body of the arrow from punching through the tip.
You actually want the arrow to be able to flex and break under a given load. It absorbs energy, making it less likely that the arrow will actually penetrate.
Combat blunts break more frequently than normal target arrows as they stop without penetration when they hit and most of the energy has to be absorbed by the arrow itself. It's a pretty high attrition rate. But it sure is fun
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Fungus
Location: Taranaki
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| Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 11:04 am Charge |
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I WILL BE A TARGET
I will get the mesh plus my gear not bad i have a Gorjet and Salet plus a lot of plate as thats what they play in the Naki.
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Twizel shall fall |
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NigelT
Site Admin
Location: Wellington
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| Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 11:34 am |
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| Angel wrote: | | I'll try to remember to bring an arrow to lunch tomorrow |
That would be awesome, thanks Kerry. I'd love to borrow some arrows, but I worry about damaging other peoples stuff. Perhaps if I could just take a look at an arrow and get an idea of how they're made that'll be enough to get me off and running. I can do armour tests with any old arrow and rubber chair leg (as long as there isn't a person in the armour at the time) until I can get proper blunts.
| Angel wrote: | | It's usually clear tape with fibres running longitudinally down the tape. Sometimes it's cross-hatched. |
I think I know the stuff yes. For some reason I had visions of actually fibreglassing the outside of your arrows, but no, you're just talking about wrapping reinforced packing take lengthwise(?) around the arrows.
| Angel wrote: | | Wood is what has been tested for safety. You want the fact that wood has a solid cross section, and a solid alloy arrow of the same diameter would be relatively heavy, changing the impact. You need sufficient diameter to prevent the body of the arrow from punching through the tip. You actually want the arrow to be able to flex and break under a given load. It absorbs energy, making it less likely that the arrow will actually penetrate. |
I've asked Eastborne Timbers to give me a bulk buy quote on straight grained Tasmanian Oak dowel (which is the cheapest of those mentioned in the SCA handbook) at 10mm diameter. This is bigger than normal for a 30lb bow but should provide a bit more energy absorbtion when shooting into solid objects and be less likely to break.
Is there a standard diameter for combat arrows?
| Fungus wrote: | I WILL BE A TARGET
I will get the mesh plus my gear not bad i have a Gorjet and Salet plus a lot of plate as thats what they play in the Naki. |
Fantastic! Perhaps you can pursuade the rest of your troop to follow suit. The more people that are armoured well the more we can do.
Cheers,
Nigel |
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Jesster
Location: Wellington, New Zealand
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| Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 12:20 pm |
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Hi all.
i know i had fun at Taupo Greak Lakes Tourney when we spontaneously shot at Fungus with Dave's blunts.
There were a few different poundages of bows used (not all were near 30lb at 28 inches)
i wouldnt mind having another go at it because if was rather nice to have amoving target!
i dont have any armour of any sort so i think that leaves me out for when 'proper' play happens.
Jesster |
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Chevalier
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| Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 12:46 pm |
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| Quote: | | the idea of just strapping on a piece of mesh with shoelaces, cable-ties, etc sounds a bit rudamentary, but you're right, it's easy and cheap to do. And could in theory be fitted over the top of almost any helm... except perhaps a normal nasel, which doesn't have any inherent frame around the eyes... not sure how this might work. |
Hey Nigel,
do you come to Clontarf? I would be happy to bring along the combat archery mesh we used down South for steel combat achery... quite somple, really, as you stated yourself. |
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Kath
Location: Naki
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| Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 1:18 pm |
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Having been on the receiving end a few times I am all for flu-flus as they carry the advantage of the noise, and also being able to sight them coming at ya. The scary ones are arrows which fly flat and quiet, hence if at head height can be a worry.
The blunts can bruise up quite a bit...of course I got hit on the back of the arm at Harcourts where I only have gambeson coverage.....
I am really pleased and excited at the level of interest being shown toward this. (Thanks Nigel!)
I am really keen to be in the fort at NAAMA with a whole heap of projectiles incoming.
We need to confirm javelin requirements - packing, taping etc
Wondering what a suitable trebuchet missile is? Suitably coloured tennis balls? |
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Fungus
Location: Taranaki
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| Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 2:44 pm Point taken |
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The T.m.s. boys will be keen so who else is up for being Arrow Fodder?
_________________
We dont play tiddly winks
Twizel shall fall |
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NigelT
Site Admin
Location: Wellington
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| Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 3:08 pm |
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| Kath wrote: | | I am all for flu-flus as they carry the advantage of the noise, and also being able to sight them coming at ya. |
The consensus seems to be in favour of flu-flus. Perhaps we can compromise by requiring flu-flus with less feather but more than a regular arrow... some happy middle ground.
| Kath wrote: | | I am really pleased and excited at the level of interest being shown toward this. (Thanks Nigel!) |
Thanks... I think. I may have bitten off more than I can chew here. If this goes well it will hopefully be the permanent introduction of combat archery to NAAMA (and other) camps. I think it's been tried in the past in isolated exercises, but this year I'd like to see it mainstream with archers in as many main battles as possible - subject to armour requirements being met of course.
| Kath wrote: | | We need to confirm javelin requirements - packing, taping etc |
The SCA rules I've read don't give specifications for Javelins, but the Grey Company rules do. Their take is that Javelins can be up to 1.6m long and must have appropriate rubber blunts (they suggest walking stick knobs). They don't need to be wrapped because they don't have the same energy when thrown by hand. This changes if they are used in a spear thrower. There is no minimum distance for a Javelin. Unlike arrows, they can be picked up during combat, field-inspected and throw again. This all sounds quite reasonable to me. Any thoughts?
| Kath wrote: | | Wondering what a suitable trebuchet missile is? Suitably coloured tennis balls? |
The SCA and Grey Company have something to say about this. Amalgamating the two you get something like this: Any hit from a siege projectile, anywhere (including on a shield) is a kill. Projectiles must be either "papier mache or other lightweight material and have little appreciable weight", individual tennis balls (sometimes perforated) no more than 85g each, or "four tennis balls taped together in a tetrahedron" weighing no more than 450g. They also suggest papier mache rocks. But I guess that depends on how far you want to take the 3m authenticity rule.
Some other good ideas on siege are the suggestions the Grey Company make on capturing or killing a siege engine. A defined team are the only ones who can operate the engine. All trebuched beams must be cranked down not pulled down (incase the engine is attacked during a load). The engine can only be killed if hit by another engines projectile. The crew can be killed or captured thus rendering the engine useless.
Flat siege missles are treated slightly differently - eg a ballistae, which they restrict to 600 inch-pounds and require a minumum distance to operate because of the same reasons people here are worried about speed-blunts.
Links to this information:
http://members.iinet.net.au/~rmine/temp/ca_intro2.html
http://www.sca.org.au/marshal/docs/fighters-handbook-2.pdf
I guess the title of this thread should really read 'Combat Archery and Siege' because it's going to include all missile weapons that could conceivably be used on a NAAMA battlefield.
Sasha - I won't be going to Clontarf, sorry. However, if you happen to have a photo of your visor you could post it here. Otherwise there will be time before NAAMA to catch up with you and see for myself. Thanks for the offer. Seeing what people have done will make it easier to give suggestions to others when it's time to make announcements and publish rules, etc.
Nigel |
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NigelT
Site Admin
Location: Wellington
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| Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 3:18 pm |
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| Jesster wrote: | | i dont have any armour of any sort so i think that leaves me out for when 'proper' play happens. |
The point of trying to get combat archery mainstream is so that it's open to everyone... so let's work on getting you some armour. Apart from a helmet, you will be able to make everything else.
We haven't defined the requirements yet, but I'm guessing they'll end up something like this:
Gambeson (preferably thick if not covered by additional layers of armour), with special emphasis on the spine.
Gloves
Groin protection if your gabeson doesn't cover that low
Gorget or other throat protection.
Helmet with a perforated steel or substantial mesh visor which will prevent an 8mm arrow shaft entering from any side, or other helmet with modern protection underneath achieving the same result.
Would that be fair?
It's actually not that hard to make a gabeson and that's most of the battle. The only other thing that's tricky is the helmet and you could either buy one (Fungus knows someone making them for $130 - you'd need to fit mesh and probably an avontail youself) or borrow one from someone you know.
We may be able to run fights where the archers are not required to wear much armour, but eye protection will be mandatory regardless.
Nigel |
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NigelT
Site Admin
Location: Wellington
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| Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 3:20 pm |
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Would it be worth running regional workshops before NAAMA so people could come along make a visor for their helm, have a play with the arrows, and generally get themselves sorted?
I'd be happy to do something like this in the Wellington / Levin / Palmerston North area.
Nigel |
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