Pics of Albion swords in DBK Scabbards

[JohnF]

Today's soldiers don't practise a quick draw either. The rifle is always in
hand, sometimes slung, or placed on the ground nearby. Far more time is
devoted to ensuring the weapon is working, continues to work, and hitting
the enemy. Or at least that's what I've observed in my limited experience.

When I think of quick draws, I think of duelling circumstances, such as a duel
with pistols. Or rapiers, and small swords. Weapons that were carried in
civilian dress. Was the katana a sword for war or one mainly used in
duelling situations? I wonder if it was frowned upon to wear a sword
designed for war in civilian life. If I was in a poor village in a tropical country
seeing someone with a machete in their hands would be quite natural, if
they had a sword then I'd be worried. I believe that a knife or dagger
would've been equally ubiquitous in medieval Europe. To put an arbitrary
time period on my speculation lets say 1100 to 1400.

[Mad Jim]

On sheaths and scabbards and the like, I remember when I fist got my Practacl Norman [Hanwei], I took it to show my friend and around there was this guy who thought he knew all the shit about swords, I gave it to him to have a look at and all he could go on about was the scabbard..."Its plastic!, you can't defend with a plastic scabbard it would break..".
I thought this very odd, I pointed out that it was just a cheap item and that why would you use your scabbard in a fight? Especially a European styled one. Well he showed me his moves sword in one hand scabbard in the other all remimisent of Japanese sword art, well despite this I had to point out again, that it was a cheap plastic scabbard, not an actuall replica of a period piece and that Europeans useally had thin wood cored covered in leather scabbards which I suppose if you had to would/maybe help aid in the saving of your life..maybe.
He didn't get it. Still I don't think a period person who has paid or spent time making one would really bother about fighting with it, seems daft.

Oh well some people eh?

[mikronn]

Hi All

@ John. The standard katana you see about is more the civilian version and the war version look a little different IIRC.

@Jim. Yeh - I have seen some moves with scabbard and sword but I suspect they are a bit one-off: most scabbard will break as you say.

The iaido is just that mostly I suspect: -do or way rather than -jutsu or meant to be fully combat practical.

There are certainly some moves that are practised that look practical e.g. a draw where the hilt strikes the opponent as an injuring/distracting move in close. Another which is a partial draw and wrist lock-out to stop an opponent drawing.

I tried a longsword draw ...... nah! Too long to clear the scabbard well. Again -would be interested to be proven wrong.

cheers

mike

[JohnF]

My scabbards cost $700USD each, the I:33 sword cost $460USD and the
Sherriff $764USD. Damned if I'm going to put them in harms way.

The purpose of a scabbard is to protect the sword from the elements, to
keep it nearby whilst freeing the hands to do other things. The only time a
scabbard is not belted to a person is when it is in storage, or on a
ceremonial occasion where it is used to transport the sword. This means
that a scabbard is unlikely to be in hand at a time when it might be useful.

If you were to hit me with my scabbards, you would break them. You
would have to hit me in the eyes, or throat, or balls, or fingers, to slow
me down. You are unlikely to break any major bone, or joint. Nor can you
cut a major blood vessel.

I did have someone tell me that in the Holy Roman Empire a nobleman's
scabbard was used to hit people. The circumstance was that of a
nobleman disciplining an inferior. The sword was there in case things
turned to custard; the scabbard was used to punish. A cowering person is
not a motivated opponent, therefore pain is useful in modifying behaviour.
Nonlethal force backed up by lethal. I don't know which time period.
Possibly the scabbard was made of metal as they tended to be after the
industrial revolution. Thus, maybe, more durable.

Don't buy a metal scabbard, they dull the blade, there was a time in the
19th century when it was believed that swords didn't need to be sharp!
Statement based on reading from "The Book of Swords" Hank Reinhardt.

The art is about using timing, distance, and position to destroy an
enemies will or ability to fight. Even fanciful techniques can work if you
master those three things. For instance I could setup a McDojo and teach
my students the Way of the Teaspoon. I would teach them how defeat an
enemy with a teaspoon. I'd tell them to wait till their enemies were asleep
and jab it into their eyeball. That'd give them something to think about
whilst they continue with a flurry of attacks. This would work. But it has
limited application. Currently I view scabbard fighting in the same light.

[Mad Jim]

Well when it came down to it, the chances of me grabbing my scabbard insted of my sword would be nil, in fact the very thought of actually useing a scabbard to fight/defend is rather rediculous, unless of course the sword was sheathed and un-teathered to your person and you had time enough to grab the weapon but not to draw it in a SUPRISE attack, in which in that very moment of defence you saved your arse long enough to unsheath your sword...yes your'd be buying or repairing a scabbard, but then in those times they would have been fairly readily avalible.
Though really if some one came at me with sword and scabbard, I'd have to cut both scabbard and man down!...

[Bogue]

The drawing of the sword allows a great opportunity for a pommel strike to the face. Not too sure how it would go for a longsword, depends on your arms I s'pose.

Scotty used to use a scabbard down the leg as armour and the reality is that anything at hand would have been used in an offensive or defensive manner regardless of the price.

Some Spanish sabre techniques use the Scabbard as an off hand defensive/ offensive weapon.

Imnsho.

cheers Bogue

[JohnF]

I believe our ancestors would have spent some time practising drawing and
sheathing a sword. The issues are, safety, and protecting the blade and
scabbard from damage. In drawing the sword it is important that it comes
out without cutting off a finger, that the blade is not dulled by the edge being
dragged along the side of the scabbard. In replacing the sword it is
important that it goes straight in, else it will damage the scabbard or dull the
edge. These are things that are important to me when I am drawing or
sheathing.

Henry de Sainct-Didier, in 1573, shows three methods of drawing a sword.
In each he suggests standing with the feet together. Then moving the right
foot backwards, or sideways. Each method ends up with the sword pointing
towards face, nipple, or belly, in a position to thrust. The clothes in the
pictures appear to be civilian, there is no armour. Henry doesn't discuss
tactical circumstance. The swords appear to be designed more for thrusting
than my XIV sword from 300 years earlier. Possibly they are rapiers, or
closlely a closely related form.

[JohnF]

Here's an opinion on quick drawing of swords in Europe. Has some
respectable name dropping, Dr Sydney Anglo and John Clements.

[mikronn]

Hi John

thanks for doing the research.

There is another factor I wonder about and that has to do with the type of cut you can execute. The katana we use today and the one that iai practices with is designed as a slicing blade. It is not too difficult to learn the draw, followed by a one hand slicing cut before you take the katana in two hands to execute any further cuts. The shape of the blade lends itself to this approach.

A longsword - not so much. The style of longsword cut I have been taught is quite different and I tried it with my longsword blunts and it was not pretty. That could well be my lack of competence too!

I can see a similar (to iai) draw and cut with any slightly curved Western blade.

When the falchion arrives I will test it with that and I'd be very interestd in your further thoughts and experiments with your one-handers. Callum is looking to organise a cutting party here in the new year so may have another crack then.

cheers

mike

[JohnF]

A single edged sword, particularly a curved one, is more forgiving when
drawn with back pressing into the scabbard. Drawing a double edged
sword is slower if the tip and false edge are pressed against the back
internal edge of the scabbard. Doing this may also dull the blade and
damage the scabbard. I have found it necessary to rotate the scabbard
as part of the draw. See the following pictures.



I found it easy to do an up left cut when drawing like this. I felt it was
quite weak when compared with doing it from the I:33 underarm guard.
Yet it is still worthwhile if it is possible to hit a vulnerable target.

Henry de Sainct Didier suggests that the feet should be together at the
start. He then advises drawing the sword, and lifting the right foot at the
same time. once the sword has cleared the scabbard decide which
direction to move the right foot. Forward, to the side, or rearwards. All his
draws end up in a position to thrust. The decision is made based on what
the other person is doing. The important thing is to move so that you stay
alive, second kill the enemy.

Here are some photos of me attempting two of the draws.

Ready position

Decision time


Draw 1


Draw 2


There is a third draw. which I got very wrong. Didier's artist drew the
plate incorrectly, Didier apologises for this and corrects the mistake in his
text. I missed this and ended up in a contorted guard. This draw ends up
by advancing the right foot and thrusting through the enemies head.

I spent five minutes practising before the photos. I skim read Didier's
instructions. Take my stance, guards, and eye direction with a grain of
salt. Particularly Didier's pictures show the sword arm straighter, and
more at shoulder height. Also the left hand should be in front of the chest,
or near the neck - not glued to the scabbard. Possibly it'd be useful to put
a finger over the guard to aid in accurate thrusting with a cut and thrust
sword - as opposed to Didier's ?rapier?

[JohnF]

[JohnF]

[mikronn]

Hi John

Alas - the photos didn't come through (or at least I can't open them).

I'll ask Callum, I know Colin was thinking about combining some cutting with the dagger workshop (next day) so I will check in with those fine gents after new years.

We recently supported Colin at the Highland games and took a long a bunch of sharps, bottles and tatami.

I was reminded there of something I had forgotten due to lack of practice - you have to relax! There was one young guy (he got his picture in the local paper) who cut through everything like it wasn't there with all sorts of swords (from katana to sabre to longsword) partly because he didn't know he couldn't (if that makes sense) and partly because he was completely relaxed.

My first couple of efforts were 'baseball strikes' - dreadful. When you are out of practice you try to force the strike and hit too hard and with terrible alignment.

I was pleased to see it did all came back and at the end I was going through unsupported tatami with my katana with ease. I also discovered I see to cut better with curved swords. I tried Colin's Albion, my Valiant Zombie-slayer, the katana, a falchion and a sabre and the last 3 were much easier.

Your comment on stance work was spot on - Michael Edelson had some very similar things to say on myArmory a while ago and certainly the right stance/step makes it so much easier to use your hips to drive a cut.

Be interesting to compare notes at some point.

cheers

mike

[JohnF]

Pictures fixed. I'm uploading the photos via ftp to my own server, then linking from there. I keep forgetting to change the link from ftp:// to http://.

[JohnF]