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Patch
Location: Auckland
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 Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2012 1:08 am Historic use of large shields in battle |
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| Quote: | | “Sorry Patch I am <<edited>> cause I am good I dont … tell people 5 foot tall shields held tight to the chest are historic .” edited quote respecting Admin from MartinC. |
Aha! I have come across the delusion that large shields are un-historic again and again, it is weird, it takes no time to do the tiny amount of research to show the folly of this position but it persists…
Shields that cover you from your shoulder to your foot are easily evidenced in Bronze age Celts, Greek city states and their foes, Romans, Dark age Varangians and Carolingians, 11th century Norsemen, 12 th century Normans, 13th to 15th century foot knights, the renaissance pavise etc etc etc
In the high middle ages the larger of these kind of shields, (occasionally referred to as siege shields as they were cumbersome to carry on the march and were usually transported in wagons) are commonly depicted in period artwork.
Five minutes with mr Google and we get a plethora of articles and images. For example…
http://www.lessing-photo.com/p3/150203/15020326.jpg
http://tmp.kiwix.org:4201/I/300px_1099jerusalem.jpg
http://www.scalarchives.com/scalapic/HIP4/b/H501107b.jpg
Here are some well researched dark age Varangian guard with large shields.
http://www.ospreypublishing.com/blog/New_Artwork_Day_Varangian/
Note that their shields go from about the shoulder to the foot.
http://www.myarmoury.com/feature_shield.html
Him, lots of big shields there.
Now just in case you are under some wild delusion that I habitually use a 30 foot tall wooden fortress on the field – here is a completely normal picture of the largest shield I own. Lo! A standard 13th - 14th century square topped kite shield.
http://a7.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/72223_1648056370760_1517466454_31569748_5881589_n.jpg
S’ok man – everybody is allowed to be wrong, that’s why we have forums, to weed the truth from the illusion.
-Patch
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Victorius
Location: IMPERIVM ROMANA: The Roman club with a Living History focus.New Roman Club
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| Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 7:22 pm |
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Quite right. There's nothing wrong with large shields in NAAMA. As a Roman legionary, I often use them. However, the advantage they confer is often offset by the disadvantage:
Advantages:
- can't get stabbed in the shins by spears - painful, and dangerous
- protects the whole body from arrows in archery combat
- offers protection against the semi-skilled
Disadvantages:
- often slows you down
- good combatants always find a way round
- offers no invulnerability whatsoever against getting your arms chopped when you extend it to strike: the opposite guys one or two down in the battle line will often be watching for just such an opportunity
- can actually hinder you, especially if your opponent closes right up, and jams your shield against your body so you can't extend your arm to strike easily; and then you're just as vulnerable.
So, overall? Very useful, offer good protection, but are still no match for a well-skilled combatant.
Case in point: How many times did you easily get round us, Patch? Our long shields offered no real advantage besides saving us a few extra seconds before you took us down.
Great stuff, good fun...
Alright everyone, as you were.
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VICTORIVS, BA.MA.HONS.I, IMPERIVM. ROMANA |
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MartinC
Location: Huapai Auckland
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| Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2012 8:30 pm |
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hi patch dimension of your normal kite shield please?
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Young Knigths Learn |
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??Questions??
Location: Hawkes Bay
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| Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 12:38 am |
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wow really? you think people made shields to dimensions, you know when an inch was the space between two knuckles?
can i, as a innocent by stander ask your intentions?
and on the big arse shield debate i would like to submit the greek and spartan shields, (not from the movies.)
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[]===["""|"""|"""|"""]|)>---- MUSIC JUNKIE |
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Victorius
Location: IMPERIVM ROMANA: The Roman club with a Living History focus.New Roman Club
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| Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 9:27 am |
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| ??Questions?? wrote: | wow really? you think people made shields to dimensions, you know when an inch was the space between two knuckles?
can i, as a innocent by stander ask your intentions?
and on the big arse shield debate i would like to submit the greek and spartan shields, (not from the movies.) |
Patch's shield (from the photos, and the historical sources he posted) shows that it is roughly proportionate to the historical examples.
As for Greek and Spartan (same thing) hoplons, they proved to be too large to be effective against more mobile heavy infantry. The Macedonian phalanx used smaller shields, as they were lighter, and did just as good a job.
Romans came in with something longer (but not wider) later, scutum, from about 200BC through to about 250 AD (varying from the long oval, ankle to shoulder length in the Republic to 31 BC, then a shorter cut-off version, and finally the tile-shield (flat top and bottom, mid-shin to shoulder). All of these were narrower than Greek or Macedonian shields (roughly the same width as Medieval kite-shields). But from about 250 AD (give or take a few decades), some of them (with the exception of flat ovals) moved back to large round shields, similar in size to the old Greek hoplons (and Norse round shields' size too).
So, which shield type is the most effective? I'll leave that to others to work out: a lot will be personal preference.
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VICTORIVS, BA.MA.HONS.I, IMPERIVM. ROMANA |
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Thaner
Location: New Plymouth
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| Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 6:30 pm |
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i think the general concensus is that shields came in all shapes and sizes, for those that wanted a particular shield, its with the organised military units, the romans etc where a "standard" shield was the norm, but really, we alll know anything that is gonna stop something sharp making contact with your body and is managable by the person using it, they'll use it
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I now wait to shake the Hand of Fate |
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Robbo
Location: In the Tree's
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| Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 10:50 pm |
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Personally I don't give a damn WHAT size your shield is ... just be consistent. If you're using a tower/large shield, don't use a rapier etc.
Not speaking of anyone in particular, just chiming in with what I have seen on the field from time to time 
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Hail the Sky Traveller |
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Thaner
Location: New Plymouth
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| Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2012 8:40 am |
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exactly Robbo
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I now wait to shake the Hand of Fate |
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conal
Site Admin
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| Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2012 9:00 pm |
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I prefer a round shield and short-broadsword.
They go well together, like sushi and cola.
I also find that axes are a good solution to large shields.
Might I suggest that we know the ways of many weapons.
Actually I stole that quote from this guy...
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MartinC
Location: Huapai Auckland
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| Posted: Thu Mar 29, 2012 7:55 pm |
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Hi Patch Have you lost the tape measure?
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Young Knigths Learn |
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Chantelle
Moderator
Location: Auckland
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| Posted: Thu Mar 29, 2012 9:00 pm |
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Please refrain from that kind of comment martin. Its not in a polite vein....ie not needed.
A polite comment asking again is better than goading or sarcasim. Consider all the possibilities why patch may not have answeresd...not just convenient ones.
Little comments are little. But they are the reason why so many are not taking this forum seriously as they think it a place where people are personally attacked or moan just to hear their own words.
Please, set a good example.
Thankyou
Chantelle
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check out my website!
https://www.facebook.com/chantellegerrardcostumes?bookmark_t=page |
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MartinC
Location: Huapai Auckland
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| Posted: Fri May 04, 2012 10:31 pm |
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hi its a while patch has not given dimensions of his shield. it is totaly un time period for his dress in maille. images provided are a siege two men behind one shield a moasaic borth not to scale the head and wall . the third image a series of people holding ovoid topped long kite shields.
show me the arceology young patch . not this hoe you exploit the naama rule set,
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Young Knigths Learn |
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conal
Site Admin
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| Posted: Wed May 09, 2012 10:17 am |
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| I blame society.
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Patch
Location: Auckland
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| Posted: Wed May 09, 2012 11:40 pm |
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G’Day Martin.
Heh heh heh I was going to let this conversation slide gracefully into obscurity dude, as a favor to you. Lots of people have already pointed out that you are flat out wrong when you insist that people in maile never used large shields. There are entire units using them in the Joms Viking video posted earlier for example.
Sorry man, I am really not trying to make you look foolish here. Check some books – you will find many, much better pictures in them than the few minutes of quick search I did on the net. I certainly would not like to try to convince Normans that they don’t use kite shields.
All your questions were well answered in the 1st post. Here is the link for you http://www.gatheringdarkness.co.nz/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2802
| Quote: | | “images provided are a siege two men behind one shield” |
Uh… nope look at the knight in maile and large red shield. Just one guy. That one picture alone is enough.
| Quote: | | “it is totaly un time period for his dress in maille” |
Um… are you looking at the same picture? He is wearing maile, he is using a large shield, case closed.
But here is even more pictorial evidence to mound on the heap. Seriously this is only 5 minutes of effort to find many examples.
Listen, I am not sure what has given you the sour grapes here neighbor, but I have no beef with you, if fact I don’t even really know who you are.
Whatever it is that I might have done to make you gnash your teeth so charmingly, I apologize for dude.
Have a good day man.
-Patch.
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conal
Site Admin
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| Posted: Thu May 10, 2012 7:02 pm |
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I always use Byzantine art for a source of big shields.
They really got into them.
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