More interesting Headblow?

[Stuart]

-and your art is what ? You have not made that clear.
If you want to batter each other unconscious in the name of WMA, HEMA or whatever, then on your own head be it ( in this case, literally ) .

-my concern is the spreading of this frankly dangerious practice into re-enactment. I also note that the practice of thusting to the helm and heavy lateral blows is regarded as hazardous and a European HEMA website specifically warns of the strong possibility of serious vertibral damage. I shall post the url as a reference.

As for my opinions ? , They are based on a lifetime of solid experience.
You forget some of us have been where you are 25-30 years ago. We did actually find out the hard way that somethings ( like power headblows or head thrusts ) are a very bad idea.

As for accidents. Of course people get hurt in the martial arts. My old kendo club and sabre club used to have accidents. But what you are suggesting can only work to maximise an accident. Go ask a medical doctor about the effects of your idea ... For that matter, try getting insurance for your club !

For your information I have sufficient helms for all periods. What I do not have ( and do not want ) is to be forced to wear layers of steel bars and metal mesh in re-enactment combat because some dot want to play uncontrolled head-blow. We have enough rules and regulations. We do not need any more.
Re-enactment work fine as it is.

[griff]

you know the only problem with some of the debates on this forum is the lack of a tone of voice, i know those little face doofers are there but does anyone really look at them, there also doesnt seem to be one for sarcastic which is how some comments can sound when in fact they are not.
anyway back to topic
there is in my opinion only one way to safley do head blow with steal weapons and the minimum head protection of a bowl and a nasal, and that is straight down to the crown, it can be from any side ie: front back side, but only to the crown. if you start doing other shots what is going to happen is joe blow and blow joes are in the thick of it and joe blows group does decaps and thrusts where as blow joes group do not ,but they all do "head blow" someone is going to get hurt. I have know doubt that one day in the nz movement there will be a serious head injury of some kind , (more than a whack in the teeth) but if you start doing crazy decap shots and the like, it will happen sooner rather that later,

[Stuart]

This is the reference for my last post.

http://www.hema.freehomepage.com/sparringhelm.htm

I agree with Griff.

[David]

Here is an article I retrieved form the British Medical Journal (BMJ). It deals with football players heading footballs - which may be very repetitive.

Interesting is the accepted minimum force to cause a sports related head injury is 40g - I maintain that a well CONTROLLED head strike (I think the use of head BLOW is counter-productive as it implies uncontrolled, excessive force) performed by a suitably TRAINED and DISCIPLINED practitioner will generate force much less that 40g.

Of course there are almost infinite variables and certainly the risk of traumatic brain injury (TBI) is increased with increased age, sex, genetic predisposition and previous medical history etc. but then all of medicine is based upon norms and acceptable risk.

I found another journal article that suggested that a cervical (neck) collar could minimise the incidence of TBI because it stabilised the cervical spine and therefore decreased the shearing forces transmitted to the central nervous system during whiplash incidents (hence their use in motorsport) so maybe something similar might be useful for those who are worried.

At the end of the day it all boils down to personal comfort and choice - if you don't like head strike combat then don't engage in it. If your risk factors are higher then don't engage in it. If you are not trained well enough or are not disciplined enough then don't engage or if you are approached by someone you feel is not trained or disciplined enough refuse to fight them.

As a final word - football players aren't wearing helmets - we are so a suitable well designed, full head helmet is going to be of vital importance...



BMJ 2003;327:351-352 (16 August), doi:10.1136/bmj.327.7411.351
Editorial
Brain injury and heading in soccer

Head to ball contact is unlikely to cause injury but head to head contact might

Whether repeated concussive or subconcussive blows cause permanent or cumulative brain injury is a complex and controversial question. Press coverage highlighted the case of Jeff Astle, a former England international football player, where the coroner ruled the cause of his death as an "industrial disease"—suggesting that repeated heading of balls during his professional career was the cause of his subsequent neurological decline.1 This case was at odds with that of Billy MacPhail, a former Glasgow Celtic player, who in 1998 lost a legal battle to claim benefits for dementia that he said was due to heading the old style leather footballs. Concern has been raised over whether heading in soccer may be the basis for injury and cognitive impairment, and in the United States this has led to calls advocating the use of protective headgear for soccer players.

Soccer players don't just head the ball; their heads can collide with each other, and players in positions where heading is common are also more likely to have head to head collisions more often. Although uncommon, most concussive injuries seen in soccer derive from such head to head rather than ball to head contact.2

Heading a soccer ball results in head accelerations of less than 10 g (or less than 1000 rad/s2) whereas the minimum values for the development of sport related concussion are 40-60 g (or 3500-5000 rad/s2).3 4 In contrast, head to head contact can generate enough of the forces required to cause brain injury as in any conventional head injury. Recent biomechanical research has found that commercially available soft helmets fail to reduce even this degree of head trauma to a safe level, which implies that these helmets have only a limited protective role in this setting.5

There is no evidence that sustaining several concussions over a sporting career will necessarily result in permanent damage.6 Research on experimental animals provides some supporting evidence against the concept that recurrent concussive injuries alone cause permanent damage. In studies of experimental concussion, animals have been subjected to repeated concussion 20-35 times in a two hour period. Despite the unusually high number of injuries no residual or cumulative effect was shown.7

Can repeated subconcussive trauma such as might be seen in heading the ball cause a cumulative neurological injury in this setting? Although this was indicated by early retrospective studies, more recent studies have not supported this idea.8-10

In a series of retrospective studies including retired Scandinavian soccer players, cognitive deficits were noted.11 12 The results of these studies are flawed, with appreciable methodological problems. These problems include the lack of pre-injury data, selection bias, failure to control for acute head injuries, lack of blinding of observers, and inadequate controls. The authors conclude that the deficits noted in these former soccer players were explained by repetitive trauma such as heading the ball. However, the pattern of deficits seen is equally consistent with alcohol related brain impairment—a confounding variable that was not controlled for.

Matser et al from the Netherlands have also implicated both concussive injury and heading as a cause of neuropsychological impairment in both amateur and professional soccer players.2 13 Reanalysis of the data from these papers, however, indicates that purposeful heading may not be a risk factor for cognitive impairment.14

Prospective controlled studies using clinical examination, neuroimaging, or neuropsychological testing have failed to find any evidence of cognitive impairment in soccer players.8-10

We do not know for certain whether heading the ball in soccer may result in chronic cognitive impairment. It seems unlikely that subconcussive impacts such as seen in head to ball contact will cause chronic neurological injury. Although head to head contact may cause concussive injury, it is both uncommon and unlikely to result in cumulative brain injury. It has been speculated from other sports that particular genotypes may place athletes at heightened risk in association with head trauma, although this is yet to be validated in other studies.15

For football players the avoidance of exposure to brain injury is important, although currently there are few means by which this may be achieved. Most head to head contact is inadvertent, and coaching techniques and visual perception training may help in a few cases but are unlikely to eliminate this problem entirely. Soft shell helmets or head protectors currently do not have the biomechanical capability to prevent concussive trauma and hence cannot be recommended.

Paul R McCrory, research fellow

Centre for Sports Medicine Research and Education, Brain Research Institute, University of Melbourne, Parkville, Victoria 3054, Australia (pmccrory@compuserve.com)

Competing interests: None declared.

References
<Snipped>

[Gerard Kraay]

[PopTart]

It seems to me that the primary focus of all involved in this discussion is safety. We 're just coming at it from different directions.

I've just been rereading most of the thread, and I can appreciate where Stuart is coming from. Njal, it may have been 20 years ago, but if you had been involved in the serious head injury of another, when it wasn't intended, how do you think you'd feel about it? If he seems to be coming across as a bit of a doom preacher on the topic, then by the gods, he has a damn good reason.

Having said that, I think Griff made a good point about the lack of vocal tone. I think we should all try and be less reactive when posting and more reflective?

Blackcrow isn't advocating uncontrolled blows to the head btw. He has repeatedly made reference to correct training and equipment. It follows on that if you don't have either, you're not allowed to play! I still personally feel that the strikes asked about by Victorius at the start of this thread are far too dangerous to employ in either standard NAAMA combat, or in the current head blow that is being used either. As a display using individuals with enough training AND the right protective gear? Fine. They know what they are doing, and we can all enjoy the spectacle.

Bear in mind, Victorius (to me at least anyway) looked like he merely wished to open up the discussion, not that he actually advocates doing such things as a mainstream and blanket change to how we "fight". At least, I hope that's the case...

[Scott]

I asked my girlfriend of eight years, who is a medical doctor currently working as a GP, what she thought of the damage potentials of head blow combat from a controlled strike. Not "an uncontrolled head-blow from some dolt".

Anyway, after demonstrating a controlled strike she said that even without a helmet such a blow would only be harmful if it hit an eye, an ear, or went into the mouth and got the soft palette.

My strike was to "tap".

OK, now the contention will be that such a blow was inadequate. Frankly, a tap on the head in a helmet or fencing mask is clearly audible and unmistakably a hit unless you're one of the handful of egotistical hazard-vectors who cheat in combat.

We know that a tap system is not consistent with observed results as some people like to ignore hits "they can't feel" (this is cheating), some people have to win at all costs (this is egotism) and some people just don't care if they hurt their opponent (this is just bat shit fucking loco). That is why we take additional safety precautions.

I was going to say more but I realised what I wrote was just being contumacious, so I'll just settle with this "friendly" advisory:

When you lash out with an aggressive response to a post YOU CLEARLY DID NOT READ then you, along with everything you have to say, suddenly lose credibility.

[Nathan]

Here, here Scott. couldn't agree with you more.

[PopTart]

Well said Scott!

It's William posting here by the way. How are you and Paul both doing?

Anyways, back to the topic:

Handy having a GP to call on for professional advice on the matter. Anybody else got any qualified friends/partners who they could ask about it? That way it should cover most of the macho posters when they try to type things like: "Hit us as hard as you like cause we're HAAAAAARD! *pant* *pant* (sounds of slobber, breaking rawhide, and splintering ply!)"

The above is of course an exaggerated example. I hope no one has posted anything like that... except maybe Snorri... but he's mad anyway... Hi Sam!

[Scott]

Try having a medical professional around when you're genuinely sick. My last cold I got a fever of 39.7 or something, not *too* high but not in the happy zone either. What does Helen do? Taunts me for three days, finally takes my temperature then acts all aggrieved that I should be so inconsiderate as to *actually* be ill.

Presumably some people out there are in loving relationships where their partners shower them in medicine, massages, sympathy and hot pole-dancing medieval cosplay when they are unwell.

There's no justice, I tell ya...

**edited in**

Oh yeah, and when SHE'S sick what happens? She writes her own prescription and then sends me on a high-speed journey through the horrors of the Auckland SH1 just so I can get to the chemist in this *one* hospital before it shuts for the night.

There really is no justice

[Carl]

the word Control is being thrown about the place a lot in this discussion, what does every one think it means, or what does it mean to you.

To me it means "Fighting Safely" when you think about it the only thing seperating the weapons we use and lethal instruments of death is an Edge.

No matter what we do we have to do it SAFELY, whether it be, NAAMA, WMA, HEMA, Headblow, or trying to keep Womble sober, it doesn't matter, safety first, safety last, safety ALWAYS.

so if you want to do lateral head blows then fine do them safely, and if you can't do them safely then either dont do them or find a way to do them safely.

Stuart You seem to me to be one of those very rare people, that is, someone who has done everything, and been every where and not learned a single thing, Someone once said "A wise man speaks becuase he has something to say, a Fool speaks because he needs to be heard"

we have heard you,

you dont like head blow, cool no one wants you to do it, but at the same time we dont want you to tell us how to play our game.

[Patch]

I really enjoy head-blow, I have had some fantastic experiences with head-blow combat. My experiences have taught me in no uncertain terms that more often than not, head-blow combat is harder hitting than standard combat. There is no reason for this change of control, it just seems to be the way it is. Even on the online videos it is the same, there are lots of videos of standard NAAMA style combat, in them the fighters are often not even wearing helms or armor, it is almost always light contact skirmishing, skilled and fun.
Here is an example of Viking fighting training from Europe.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQtuD2WP30w&mode=related&search=

On the other hand you find many examples of videos of heavy hitting head-blow. The heavy armor, heavy hitting and injuries are significantly more noticeable (closed head injury and concussion in this example).
I don't think it has to be that way either, the few times that I have fought in controlled, skilled, light but firm contact head-blow skirmishes they have been a joy. I completely agree that if everyone is fighting safely then opening up the extra target zone is better. If everyone had a box then shots to the groin would be perfectly fine too.
As another interesting note, the heavy hitting head-blow combat has almost no female fighters.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=McoL6PZw_MM&mode=related&search=

I really enjoy head-blow combat, I think it is best for experienced fighters.
I also enjoy heavy hitting combat and armored combat and S.C.A. heavy fighting. Not that I enjoy all fighting in a blanket sense, I tried S.C.A. fencing a few times but it never really interested me for all that I respect it as a fine fighting sport.

I certainly feel that there is room for many styles of fighting at NZ medieval events, as long as they are in their own arena, well marshalled and everyone knows the game that they are playing. I think you will find that the greatest numbers of people will always want to do the standard forms but there is every enthusiastically encouraged opportunity to organize an area and marshals and muck in with the alternative styles.
Cheers,
............Patch.

[Nathan]

I agree Patch. As I said in another post:


"Posted: Tue Aug 07, 2007 11:35 pm

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I was watching a video on youtube of one of the Gulf Wars and noticed that all SCA fighters entering the field had to have thier Authorisation card on them - no card no play. Perhaps this could be something that could be looked at for us?

Since most of the various forms of combat are based on one clubs form or another when a fighter has met the requirements of the style they are issue a permit. this way when a group organises combat only those sificantly skilled in that form may compeate, if you want to hurry up and train. And yes I realise that there is distance involved but that does not mean that a club cannot make someone else their agent.

Obviously I have not gone into all aspects of this idea but it is that, an idea. My only thought is that this could be one way of ensuring newbys and others have that correct level of training for the field that they wish to participate in - if you want to do more then train more. "


There are enough experianced persons throughout the country to train under, and more that wish to do multiple styles. These senior fighters need to step foward and take a role in insuring that those who wish to fight in XYZ style are properly trained before taking the field. There needs more enforcement of our current regs as to what you can fight with and how within interclub. Most events require your club capitan/master-at-arms/chief nose picker to sign off on what you are safe to use yet we do not seem to enforce this. There are always newbees (and some not so newbees) wanting to use all and sundry at events, similarly get into fights that they have little or no experiance in.

I don't do headblow combat for a number of reasons except with a few people i trust compleatly in a training environment:

1) I currently do not have the equipment that I feel is required for ME (I don't care for what you think you need this is ME) to be safe,

2) Need new mouthguard (yes I back Conal's Crusade on this, tough (explentitive deleated)

3) I HAVE NOT DONE ENOUGH TRAINING!!!!!!!!!

There is no such thing as enough training. So much so that when I get to NAAMA before I am going near combat I will borrow someone experianced to beat me silly for a while to get both my eye and arm back into the "feel" of it.

Nathan
Schwertbruden aus Livonia

p.s. Sorry for any tone implied, have had much sleep this last month and some of the posts on the forum seem to be posted by people intent on a personal cavity search of themselves head first.

See you at Tatum

[Scott]

What concerns me the most is that some people think a hit to the head has to be harder than a controlled strike to the torso or a limb. Yes, the head is guaranteed to be armoured, but this doesn't give license to hammer away at it.

Greater control leads to greater safety. Greater safety leads to greater comfort while playing the game. Greater comfort leads to more people trying out that particular game to see if they like the rules. Greater numbers playing the game are a good thing.

I use the word game deliberately. We indulge ourselves in a very limited interest hobby, part of which is a combat sport. It's not real fighting. There should be no intent or desire to harm another participant, and a commitment to continue bettering one's abilities to ensure you are not only efficient in our sport, but safe too.

I disagree about head blow being only for senior fighters though. If a fighter is trained in head blow and their instructor feels they are safe for inter-club combat sports, then so be it. The historical styles consider the head a primary target since it's easy to reach and a good hit there will end the fight quickly. Thus, anyone training in WMA/HEMA should be safe for head blow combat if their instructor feels they are safe for NAAMA combat. That's a different discussion though...

[Stuart]

Carl. No one is trying to tell you how to "play your game". The thread is about expanding headblow into an area where there are significant health implications. The resulting debate is to the pros and cons of that viewpoint.
Once again, personal attacks have been made as a substitute for intelligent discourse. That is a shame.
I have learnt many things over the years, and a fool I am not. But one thing that stands out from all that learned experience is the observation that every generation makes mistakes and insight is often born out of pain. For re-enactment the norse head-tap system is fine, any other blows to the head are a hazard. You do them at considerable risk.
A heavy strike will shock the brain-stem through a helmet and concussion follows. One of my best fighters took a head strike through a good padded helm while scaling a castle wall. He felt "weird" fours hours later, lost the power of speech and was hospitalised for three days. He had delayed concussion. He missed a full weekend of battles & banquets which her had paid for and had traveled 400 miles. At least he didn`t fall sick whille driving... My point here is that the effects of heavy head-blows are unpredicable. What one man can tolerate another may find the effect disabling. As a broad guide, if are seeing bright" flashes" of light when receiving a head-blow, then that is a symptom of brain-stem shock and you are being hit too hard. Try it and see.