a good article on living history enviroments

[stephan]

http://oldhome.adelphi.edu/~sbloch/sca/tents/eground.html
i thoght this was inbteresting and worth considering
its defintly something i like the sound of
as living history should also involve attuide, inviroment ,and custom

so have a look and post what you think
should we have enchanted ground at naama ?

it would mean seqragtion of diffent periods for completness
but between reenactors i think this can be mostly ignored but for public shows like taupo ansd harcourt it might be a option

stephan

[NigelT]

The problem I see is that although this takes reenactment one step further, the prejudice against speaking about the period we're reenacting rather than only speaking in-period will detract substantially from learning.

For me at least, one of the reasons I go to camps is to see what other people are have made/done with their kit, even when it's not my period. Talking about construction methods and whether or not we could get away with something is all part of that. For example, if I didn't know about cotton then there's no way I could ask someone if cotton fabric would be a reasonable substitute for linen.

The Enchanted Ground concept assumes that everyone already knows all they need to know about their period to get by at a camp... this makes it very hard on new people.

You could perhaps (as you may have been suggesting) set aside an area, inside which you're in-persona, but outside of which you're just at any normal camp. That might work, but you're relying on everyone respecting that. There will be a lot of people at camps who won't be the slightest bit interesting in the 'role-playing' aspect of it.

Nigel

[stephan]

i think if you read it again
enchanted ground is set up as a roped area inside a much larger pennsic site

it may detract from learning but you can also explain period techiques and items and their constuction in a period way as in middle ages they also tought each other how to make /do stuff
so learning relly isent stoped at all and this works real well for public shows as well as it enhances learning about middle ages

[Wellybex]

I think what Nigel is getting at is that because you wouldn't be able to speak about anything out of the Middle Ages on the enchanted ground, you wouldn't be able to discuss the modern ways in which you recreate period items.

Most furniture, tents, clothing etc has some form of modern technique or tools used. You wouldn't be able to discuss what sort of waterproofing works for your tent etc (and believe me the last thing you want in your beautiful encampment is a leaking tent...).

Most people in this country are just starting to get their Living History clothing and encampments together and these encampments are vital places for gathering the necessary information to get started. The people who are in those pictures have clearly been doing this for longer than most reenactors in NZ.

Just give it some time and we will get there

[Inigo]

In practice, in the enchanted grounds I've seen, people are perfectly happy to talk about modern methods of building stuff. For example, using a MIG welder when armouring. They just prefer it if people don't talk about their latest conquests on WOW

[Oskar der Drachen]

Yes, that's what it is. Enchanted Ground is a specific roped off area withing a larger campsite, that is deliberately as "Period" as can be. I've not participated myself, but the ones that I've seen pick a very specific time-line and follow it.

It's to the point where once you are inside, the outside area does not exist, even voice patterns, personae, habits & actions, no mention of things that are not of the time period, etc.

[Victorius]

This may seem a little finicky, but just how extensive a period do they mean by "Middle Ages?" Some authorities hold the Medieval period beginning with Constantine presiding over the Council of Nicaea in 324 (Cambridge Ancient History). Therefore, Late Romans and Norsemen would be acceptable. Or do we start with Charlemagne, which therefore excludes Late Romans, but includes Norsemen? Or do we start even later, such as the era of the Norman Conquest of England? That would exclude the Norsemen, except that tail-end who do Hardrada's Stanford Bridge era...
Even if we do something as late as Twelfth Century, does it include only those whose periods are within a living generation of that time? Can we imagine William Rufus' contemporaries rubbing shoulders with Richard III's? Or those who re-enact either of those two periods?
Because frankly, what's the difference between discussing Twelfth-Century hauberks and fluted Gothic Sixteenth Century armour? No greater (or lesser) time period between them than between the Sixteenth Century and our own modern day...
I wonder if the American model has everyone within a few hundred years. If so, we don't have the numbers to do that.

[BigMac]

I was always told the medieval period started with the Battle of Hastings in 1066 and ran till about the 14th or 15th centry and the rennaicence (sp?) or the use of gunpowder giving quite a board range of costume, weapons and armour not to mention societies and cultures.

As to EG it sounds cool but its not my scene, hell if I could afford it I'd proberly turn up to camps in a fully tricked out RV .

TTFN
Bigmac

[Boyd]

Mad Max enactment perhaps!

[BigMac]

[Victorius]

[conal]

Gun powder in seige mining may date from 1285.

According to Mr Nicoles. "Arms and Armour of the Crusading Era" (the East) I'd give you the full reference but that would mean walking out to the shed.

[stefano]

My own thoughts on what time period is the 'medieval' time period are complex. There are definite grey areas here.

Various bits of information stand out as important.

I personally think the medieval or 'middle' period corresponds closely to the period during which the couched lance technique for cavalry soldiers reigned relatively supreme on the field of war. This is from about 1066-1099 (Norman conquest of England-First Crusade) to about 1475-1525 (Swiss foot pike supremacy over Burgundy-Spanish ordinance organisation of pike and foot).

Also involved in this calculus are:

The gradual takeup over time of the use of horse collars (unknown to antiquity) which gradually eliminates the economic basis for human slavery in Europe (a horse without a horse collar will do 5 times as much work as a man, but eat 5 times as much; a horse with a horse collar will do 10 times as much work as a man.)

The gradual development over time of gunpowder as a viable infantry weapon, not really perfected until the spanish ordinance combination of hand guns and pikes, thereafter duplicated all over Europe.

The discovery and conquest of the Americas.

The gradual renaissance or 'new birth' of learning about antiquity, peaking with the flight of greek scholars to Italy after the conquest of Constantinople by the Turks in 1453.

Amongst other things.

Also of note: The term 'moderni' was coined by the 12th Century French, to distinguish them from the 'antiqui'. We now use it to distinguish ourselves from the former as well.

Cheers

Alistair aka Stefano