 |
|
|
|
| Author |
Message |
Colin
Location: Wellington
|
 Posted: Tue Jan 16, 2007 11:19 pm |
 |
|
I have to say I didn't realise I was attacking someone's rule system. I was objecting to "As for combat, hitting the enemy first is the only way to recreate combat and prove skill."
I've already elaborated on why it is wrong in my previous two posts in this thread.
What re-enactors want to do with their own fighting rules is up to them. The only time I'm going to object is when they make ludicrous statements like the one above as some sort of fact. |
|
|
 |
Colin
Location: Wellington
|
| Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2007 8:53 am |
|
|
A bit of background. The Apache were a Parisian (French) gang known for extreme violence. They delibrately named themselves after the North American Indian tribe. Defense dans la rue developed in response to the Apache.
The following is an excerpt from the Times, May 30th 1922. It is a description of the duel between two Apache members. The antagonists fought with knives. I don't have permission to post the entire article.
"Shortly afterwards, the two men, with their seconds, went out to a lonely spot. Riri le Bequillard marked out the ground, while another second sterilized the knives over a spirit lamp. Everything was now ready. At the
words "Allez, messieurs!" the two men sprang forward and were, in a twinkling, at death grips. Charlot drew first blood, and, eager to finish off his rival, and forgetting that it was a duel "a la loyale," sought to "wind" him with a ferocious kick. He failed and then Maurice plunged the knife into his breast. "I'm done for," cried Charlot, "We'll fight it out another day if I recover," and beheld out his hand. He was assisted back to the bar and had just lifted his glass to drink when he fell back dead. His left lung had been perforated."
Here is an example of "first hit" not ending the fight. Here is also an example of someone receiving a mortal blow (lung punctured), and yet having time to get to a bar and raise his glass.
The article does not say what happened with Maurice, except that he was before the French court, and was trying to use the culture of dueling as his defense. |
|
|
|
fuzzy
Location: Auckland
|
| Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2007 11:41 am |
|
|
| White Knight wrote: | Stephan, perhaps we could incorporate in your style the idea of hitting without being hit. For those of you who are unfamiliar with this term, get in, hit him and then get out without being hit because as you know your first hit might not kill him instantly before he has a chance to hit you with a mortal blow within the next second. For simplicity let's not make it any more than a second later.
What do you think? |
Thank you. I have tried to explain that I do believe in "get in, hit them in a mortal way or a maiming way, and get out without being hit" as this is the terms that every one uses but me, (I just say hit first,) so some confusion has happened. I guess I have to spell it out for some people.
The system for this situation in our combat goes as this: try to apply common sense to situations, and if someone gets hit while their blade is in motion and could also maim the opponent, then the opponent will also take the kill (we encourage a chivalric attitude to these situations - if you know you were going to be hit in that situation you are also hit). It is however highly dependant on the situation, as it is with all rules. Most of the time commonsense applies, but we dont try to reenact a medieval superman. The buck has to stop somewhere, because we are fighting under rules, or it gets silly and potentially unrealistic. If you allow every competitor the ability to shrug off the extreme pain created by weapon wounds then it's just a contest of who can keep their breath.
In no way does the rules system I use have some weird multi-hit system, it is combat to the first clean blow (these blows will vary with armour) and if it is landed while the opponents weapon is flying toward your head with no restraint or block in the way then it most likely will also count (ie irish) but it all comes down to what the situation is, and not every situation can be written down.
Thank you,
Stephan
(death to the tinkers !!!) |
|
|
|
knight of magdalene
This account is inactive
|
| Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2007 7:55 pm |
|
|
| whats wrong with gypsies? |
|
|
|
fuzzy
Location: Auckland
|
| Posted: Thu Jan 18, 2007 9:32 pm blah |
|
|
| knight of magdalene wrote: | | whats wrong with gypsies? |
ha ha ha ha ha well said |
|
|
|
pmel018
Principal Sponsor
Location: Wokingham, near Reading, UK
|
| Posted: Fri Jan 19, 2007 10:12 am |
|
|
You have obviously never been to a major european city and seen the Rom in action.  When you have been mugged by a little old woman and a baby then you will understand the problem 
Phil |
|
|
|
Phil Berghan-Whyman
Location: Wellington
|
| Posted: Fri Jan 19, 2007 3:35 pm |
|
|
I had an old Gypsie woman in London stick a flower in my button hole (she ambushed me), then follow me down the street demanding money, before angrily ripping the flower out and swearing at me (when I wouldn't pay her). I'd only been in the country for 3 days, so I hadn't learned my lesson on street hustlers yet. Still I think its a little hard to blame all gypsies for her kind of behavior. All ethnicities contribute equitably to the worldwide pool of assholes.
_________________
Phil Berghan-Whyman
"Hand me the sword and ask me the question again"
http://www.handypaladin.co.nz |
|
|
|
knight of magdalene
This account is inactive
|
| Posted: Fri Jan 19, 2007 4:35 pm |
|
|
| What is with gypsy bashing on this forum? |
|
|
|
pmel018
Principal Sponsor
Location: Wokingham, near Reading, UK
|
| Posted: Fri Jan 19, 2007 9:25 pm |
|
|
no bashing, just the tired vioce of experience. As for Phil's experience with the flower seller, sometimes there is a grandson or other family member lurking nearby ready to "enforce' the sale.The Rom are not the only scumbags in major european towns and cities but, until the arrival of groups from eastern europe, they were the best trained, organised and directed street criminals around. this is one case where I have "been there, been done like that"
Phil |
|
|
|
Phil Berghan-Whyman
Location: Wellington
|
| Posted: Sat Jan 20, 2007 5:37 pm |
|
|
I wasn't bashing. If you read my post below, then you will spot my response that some Gypsies are bastards it doesn't mean all Gypsies are bastards. I hold this to be true of all ethnicities including my own.
| Quote: | | Still I think its a little hard to blame all gypsies for her kind of behavior. All ethnicities contribute equitably to the worldwide pool of assholes. |
_________________
Phil Berghan-Whyman
"Hand me the sword and ask me the question again"
http://www.handypaladin.co.nz |
|
|
|
Carl
Location: Just beyond the firelight
|
| Posted: Sat May 19, 2007 12:42 pm Re: WMA is not trying to change re-enactment combat |
|
|
| Colin wrote: | This claim was brought to my attention:
"this is one of the reasons NAAMA is tearing itself apart at present, on one side you have the Living History, and WMA, crowd shouting "Our Way, Our Way", and on the other you have the T.O.D crowd shouting "Our Way Our Way" and no one is saying "hey why cant we share the sand pit"."" |
My goodness Kevin Bacon Lives
Colin i had no idea you were interested in LARPing, but since my words are being used to such an inflamatory effect I feel I should defend them.
First of all "Context we dont need no stinking context" sheesh.
I made this comment in response to a movement in the Larping community towards strapping on a full harness of armour and then fighting very light NAAMA style "Touch of Death" (T.O.D) combat with FOAM RUBBER WEAPONS.
I naturally took umbridge with this and started a discussion to try and sort it out (Please please the entire thread to linked in Colin's first post to get the entire context)
I NEVER expected to see my words quoted on this forum
It has nothing to do with Re-enactment, WMA, NAAMA, or steel fighting in at all, I was merely trying to make a comparison to what was the feeling in the larping community was.
So please Colin if you could please not to use comments made by me on a COMPLETELY Unrelated Forum out of context i would appreciate it. 
or if you want to use them give me a heads up, you know where to contact me now, I endeavour to pay you the same respect.
_________________
It is not enough to say I will not be evil. Evil must be fought wherever it is found |
|
|
|
Colin
Location: Wellington
|
| Posted: Sat May 19, 2007 1:50 pm Re: WMA is not trying to change re-enactment combat |
|
|
| Carl wrote: | | Colin i had no idea you were interested in LARPing, but since my words are being used to such an inflamatory effect I feel I should defend them. |
I am neither for nor against LARPing. Just like I am neither for nor against NAAMA.
| Carl wrote: | | I made this comment in response to a movement in the Larping community towards strapping on a full harness of armour and then fighting very light NAAMA style "Touch of Death" (T.O.D) combat with FOAM RUBBER WEAPONS. |
I couldn't careless whether people in LARP strap on full harnesses and then fight very light NAAMA style with foam rubber weapons. My umbrage was at your claim that WMA was implicated at tearing up NAAMA (amongst other sides). I wouldn't have a clue whether "NAAMA is tearing itself apart at present", but your statement made it pretty clear who you thought were the antagonists.
As for context this comment (of yours) came shortly after some people had made the incredibly laughable claim that I was some how directly responsible for the "low turn out" at NAAMA 2006. Apparently me attending, sorry "organising", a WMA event on Labour weekend caused this outrage. However after the events of September 2001 I don't dare dismiss even the most ludicious claims being thought of as highly serious from this quarter.
The quote was cited with a hyperlink. Anyone so desired could look at the entire context of what you wrote. As you should realise by now, there are many people around, perhaps including yourself, that mistakenly believe that WMA is some how connected to NAAMA and the wider NZ re-enactment movement. It isn't. I endeavour to stop such rumours including the even more debilitating ones claiming that WMA is some how causing the downfall of the re-enactment movement. If people within the re-enactment movement want to find scapegoats, they're going to have to find more pliable ones.
_________________
The person who writes for fools is always sure of a large audience.
- Arthur Schopenhauer
See http://www.swordsmanship.co.nz/ |
|
|
|
Carl
Location: Just beyond the firelight
|
| Posted: Sat May 19, 2007 2:22 pm Re: WMA is not trying to change re-enactment combat |
|
|
| Colin wrote: |
. My umbrage was at your claim that WMA was implicated at tearing up NAAMA (amongst other sides). |
NOT what i was implying AT ALL, in fact i was not trying to imply or claim Anything, merely using the political climate in the community As I see It to make a comparison to what the feeling in the LARPing community was at the time.
Are you saying that WMA is such a hot potato at present that it is similar to Islam, ie; you cant say anything even remotely pertaining to it unless you are part of it?
| Colin wrote: | | As you should realise by now, there are many people around, perhaps including yourself, that mistakenly believe that WMA is some how connected to NAAMA and the wider NZ re-enactment movement. |
you have made it so Abundantly clear that WMA is not part of NAAMA or Re-Enactment that I am at a loss to see why you must keep repeating it, As for me I dont give big rats ass what you do as long as you dont tell me what i am doing is, wrong, poorly researched, historically inaccurate, badly taught, or childish.
WMA is your baby and I respect what you are doing with it, but i think that if you do not like the quality of our toys, you should stay out of our playpen, or at the very least respect what we are doing, and saying that you could not care less about what we do or how we do it IS NOT respecting our sport.
You took something I said on a completely unrelated forum and used it as an attack on you, which is not what it was ever intended to be, so dont slam me for that, you are the one with the persecutuon complex so you need to slay that devil yourself no one else can.
just leave me out of it.
_________________
It is not enough to say I will not be evil. Evil must be fought wherever it is found |
|
|
|
Colin
Location: Wellington
|
| Posted: Sat May 19, 2007 3:11 pm Re: WMA is not trying to change re-enactment combat |
|
|
| Carl wrote: | | Are you saying that WMA is such a hot potato at present that it is similar to Islam, ie; you cant say anything even remotely pertaining to it unless you are part of it? |
No, however if you made false claims like WMA "tearing up NAAMA" expect it to be met with hostility (at least from me). I also like the connection you are trying to draw to religion. Seems to be a common thread.
| Carl wrote: | | you have made it so Abundantly clear that WMA is not part of NAAMA or Re-Enactment that I am at a loss to see why you must keep repeating it... |
On May 2 2007 Anna wrote "Thank you - I finally understand your perspective. The reason I haven't sent invites to, for instance, karate schools is because I don't imagine they are interested in getting dressed up and playing with us at interclub re-enactment events. I've seen WMA practitioners at events, dressed up, and assumed they were part of re-enactment, which is why I included the way in the lists of fight types that I hoped would send a representative or two. Apologies for the misunderstandings that have happened from there. My intentions to include WMA etc were honest but misplaced."
This thread was started Jan 02 2007. Jan 02 2007 < May 2 2007
On May 16 2007 you wrote "I am not interested in seperation Colin but instead building bridges and recognising that although we play in different sandpits we are all in the same kindergarten."
While not as definitive as Anna's remark, it still infers a commonality between NAAMA and WMA (in the context of that thread).
It would seem I still have a long road ahead of me convincing (some) people within re-enactment that WMA is not re-enactment.
| Carl wrote: | | WMA is your baby and I respect what you are doing with it, but i think that if you do not like the quality of our toys, you should stay out of our playpen, or at the very least respect what we are doing, and saying that you could not care less about what we do or how we do it IS NOT respecting our sport. |
I believe the last time I "played in your playpen" would be the year 2000. I have never once sought to play in the NAAMA sphere since.
Why should I respect what you are doing out of curiousity?
I respect, outside combat, what MLHNZ do. I can see the work and effort they do. I can respect that.
There are numerous individuals with the SCA (NZ) who have done loads of work that I can respect. Due to the quantity I generally have a high respect overall for SCA NZ. I'm also developing a respect for SCA rapier in Auckland due to the work some of them are doing in reconstructing HEMA.
I respect NAAMA groups like the Red Ravens for their overall enthusiasm. I've never witnessed a more dedicated bunch to helping others. That I can respect.
If there are distinctly NAAMA groups who put in a great deal of effort into history, research and the like, I can respect that.
But NAAMA as a sport I do not respect. Why should I? What does it offer that it should be worthy of respect? What research or empirical evidence does it provide? That's not to imply it cannot be fun (but I don't personally find it such), but fun by itself doesn't command respect.
_________________
The person who writes for fools is always sure of a large audience.
- Arthur Schopenhauer
See http://www.swordsmanship.co.nz/ |
|
|
|
Carl
Location: Just beyond the firelight
|
| Posted: Sat May 19, 2007 3:32 pm Re: WMA is not trying to change re-enactment combat |
|
|
| Colin wrote: |
No, however if you made false claims like WMA "tearing up NAAMA" expect it to be met with hostility (at least from me). |
Did I make this claim? I dont remember making this claim, i dont remember making any claim other than we argue a lot.
Is that a false claim?
| Colin wrote: | While not as definitive as Anna's remark, it still infers a commonality between NAAMA and WMA (in the context of that thread).
It would seem I still have a long road ahead of me convincing (some) people within re-enactment that WMA is not re-enactment. |
Ok you win (places hand on heart) I will from this day forward Never again assume that WMA has anything to do with any form, mutation, or interpretation of re-enactment or sword fighting or medieval european combat what so ever, So help me God.
_________________
It is not enough to say I will not be evil. Evil must be fought wherever it is found |
|
|
|
|
|
Please read the terms of use