a discussion about all tournament injuries - please read

[Colin]

[David]

[Chantelle]

a lot of good points coming in from everyone

robbo - i love your dream....some bits of it sound achievable....especially if the ideas keep coming

and your idea of splitting it up is good too - should we give it a bit longer for people to join and speak - and then split?

the plan was to once the dust settled - to go through all the posts and collate the ideas etc and post those so people could go from there with more discussion and then action

thank you again for everyone taking part in this - we have to keep in focus that this is for the safety and potentional saving of our friends lives and limbs in the future - that should be our focus - we don't want a death or injury that hurts not only the person but the whole community keep the realisation that we need to protect each other and ourselves and the rest should be easy....

and Rhiannon just contacted me to say add her name to the original document as she agrees with it

Chantelle

[David]

A couple more ideas:

Hearing is always a problem in tournaments and field battles. Could a loud-hailer be used to call break? More marshals on the field with a distinctive "Break flag" for visual communication!

Might it be an idea for all Clubs to post or link to their individual training and grading syllabuses, rulesets and equipment requirements so that they might be centralised and therefore be able to be compared in order to begin to understand common ground? (If Clubs do not have such documents then it might be an idea to create them as we are increasingly moving into an era of accountability).

The creation of different "Fighting Weights" (this was already starting to happen at Taupo with the Armoured category). Different weights would have different rulesets etc and provide different levels of comfort for competitive encounters.

At some stage - if this is a serious movement and it gains momentum - then Club Captains and Instructors are going to have to sit down...

Goddess help us all

Yours Aye

D


AS&S Rulesets

We are in the (lengthy) process of completely overhauling our Grading and Ranking structure at this time. New syllabuses are being produced in order to attempt to set our own house in order. It would be interesting to do this in the light of a wider movement...

[Thaner]

I agree on the point that there needs to be a better general awareness of certain types of actions which cana nd do cause injury.

As everyone is saying, a general awareness of the level of gear that is acceptable for fighting is good, but further, people should a)not go into a mass melee above the scope of protection of their own gear/skill level and b) more stringent marshalling across the board.

As for the original post, the only gripe I have is the reference to manslaughter, manslaughter under new zealand law is deemed as 'culpable homocide'.

I seriously doubt there is a single person within the reenactment community who would kill anyone else, through accident. Its when a nutter who is blatantly breaking rules of engagement on the field and starts hacking into people way too hard and being a dick, thats when the manslaughter word should be thrown about, but then, that kind of person should not make it through training, and the captain of that club should certainly have weeded them out by that point. When I started medieval fighting, many years ago, I had to train for at least 6 months to a year before I was even allowed to participate in field combat, I had to do the lord of the rings fights as a meat shield for the crowd with a quarter staff, as I had not graded at that point.

Maybe the standard of training has decreased recently, or length of time people have to train, and be observed before being allowed on the field has decreased.

Another thing I would like to put out there; due to personal experience recently, the validity of 'injuries' received on the field.

I've put a lad in hospital a month or so ago with a charged, pulled blow, that was a) less powerful and b)pulled more that the lady that I hit standing next to him.

I fight hard with a Danish axe, but I do so with control and respect of the damage that the weapon, even in its blunt state can cause. So when someone goes down, out cold, rolling around incoherrant from a blow that I have hit people with countless times, I feel quite bad, and then feel quite suspicious as to why they are injured so bad.

[Robwell]

In the initial post you said that attitude couldn't be regulated, I'm sorry, but this is the thing that needs to change. If people want to be involved in a martial art then they need to develop a significant amount of self control.

I wasn't at Harcourt park, and I wasn't at the last Taupo, and I have given up training with a club, although the words of David about not being a re-enactor is having me thinking that Auckland Sword and Shield might be worth a try.

I have a history of TaeKwonDo and Karate, and believe that sword fighting should have more emphasis on control because of the use of weapons than is present in these two eastern martial arts, the comment about people wanting to play with swords is pretty much the problem. This is going to be provocative I know, but anyone that is interested in re-enactment should go and buy a rubber sword. I've been hit in the back of the head from behind with an axe that left a significant dent in 2mm plate (previous Taupo field battle), and hit in the middle of the back by someone that should know better (a 'respected' member of this community at the Waikato winter show). The first incident could have killed me the second triggered shingles (for those that don't know - and I didn't at the time - shingles is something that lays dormant in nerve tissue after chicken pox, that I'd had as a kid then manifests as a rash and pain - in my case in the legs).

To use weapons in eastern martial arts you need to be a senior or black belt, and already have proven your control. Too much of the activity of these events are based around the experience and really getting into the feeling - re-enacting, rather than developing any significant level of skill.

I believe any field battle or melee should be conducted without steel weapons - you don't find civil war re-enactors using actual shot and cannon ball.

Combat should be well marshalled, given adequate time and not rushed (the problem of the last Taupo tournament I went to and one of reasons i considered it to be both dangerous and trivialised). Competitors should treat all weapons as sharp, and marsheling and rules should reflect this. This way they will consider defence as important as attack and we won't have beserkers rewarded.

I'm even of the belief that we need a governing body and instructors need to be authorised and responsible for their students, ie. their qualifications could be revoked.

[Chantelle]

excellent points and i do agree - we need to be safe fighters - we need control and basic safety when facing an opponent

traditional martial arts have codes and stadardisation, we have had some semblance of that in the past

the original post was ackowledging that we don't now and may never due to being so scattered, new people starting clubs, new manuscripts being studied like the later period rapier and transition, and without meaning to offend because we are humans and it happens - idividual personalities over the years etc.

the reason for the original post's suggestions to focus on the end point - the safety equipment was so even if someone is not trained sufficiently and slips under the radar -we have all at least taken all the precautions we can to make sure the sword is stopped by a helmit or the face is protected by mesh for an example.

robbo's suggestion of breaking the thread into three is a good one - any thoughts people on WHEN we should do this?

and i say again - if anyone is coming into this discussion now - please read from the beginning or inform other group members about it to make them aware, also there are people who do not go on GD - if you know they don't - please pass this on as they may wish to be included in the discussion and may have valid points to contribute.

thanks
Chantelle

[Ben]

I have also noticed the sharp increase in injuries and a general feeling among fighters that they are willing to accept lower standards of control and suggestion that others should accept more risk or go do something safer.

There are a number of good points being discussed here and I agree that we need to do something before it gets forced on us by ACC / DOL. I like Robbo's 3 categories so I'll talk to those

Equipment
This is a balance of safety and barrier to entry. The higher we set our minimum requirements the harder it will be to attract new people. If you need $1000 plus worth of gear just to participate we can expect to loose people and have trouble getting them back, however if we aren't safe we risk getting shut down.
Generally, the greater the level of control expected and the higher the quality of marshaling the less safety equipment we need. Some basics are still necessary though no matter how safe the environment - Gloves, because it doesn't take much to get your fingers mashed. helms because heads are really important and build it from there.


Training
This is the key to it all - Back when I started you did have to be signed off by your club captain on every combination you wanted to use and get every weapon checked before you fought with it. Admittedly there wasn't really much consequence if you let someone in who wasn't up to scratch...
If someone is well trained, has good control and good awareness of where their weapon is (and their opponents) they are generally pretty safe.
Attitude is critical - if your attitude is that people should be able to take it if you're a little rough sometimes and think it's ok so long as you win they you're asking for an accident. On the other hand, if you think a bruise of a near miss to a banned target zone is something to stop and figure out how and why it happened then things are a lot safer. Taking hits is another important part of attitude - failure to do so frustrates your opponent who almost always knows that they're hit you, sometimes when you haven't realised it yourself yet.
Understanding if you're endangering yourself is another important skill that many fighters lack - if your attempt to protect yourself pushes someones blade to your head and you don't even realise you've done it then you need more training.
Knowing to stop when you're told without waiting to see why is vital. So is recognizing the command. This should be really clear at all events and preferably fighters should be familiar with the commands that other disciplines use so that even if someone calls the wrong word they still get the message.

Marshaling

Marshals and organizers set the tone of an event. If you insist on harder hits or don't stop the fight when the hit is made it can very quickly degenerate into a dangerous situation. If the marshal is not consistent fighters get irritated fast.
Good marshaling and a safety oriented attitude creates a fantastic fighting environment.
A lot of the time marshals are just experienced fighters who are doing it because someone has to. Most of the time they do a good job and I thank them for it because if they didn't we couldn't do what we do.

Different styles / rule sets

This is a big one - now days each event has it's own set of rules, in many cases ones that aren't quite what anyone is used to. This is a very dangerous situation - if a fighter doesn't quite understand the rules of the day the can fall back on what they're used to or worse, a warped combination of their perception of the rule of the day combined with the what they normally use. If this fragmentation continues then we will need a minimum set of safety equipment that will keep someone safe when the unexpected occurs because you can bet that sooner or later it will.

When accidents do happen everyone involved needs to get together and figure out what the hell happened (without just pointing fingers) and how to prevent it happening in future. The organizers and marshals need to accept that whatever happens at their event is their responsibility (not fault, responsibility) as much as it is the fighters.


I would like to think that we will be able to do what we do in the future in a safe and friendly environment without having to get totally rolled in DOL approved cotton wool because we couldn't make ourselves safe.

-Ben[/u][/b]

[Freebooter]

I’ve been battling with this reply for some days, and so much of what has happened above I have not seen until sitting down to write this morning. I am, therefore, not going to refer back to what has gone before, and will try really hard to exercise detachment while writing this. Anything I say in this post is intended as constructive criticism, and not as an insult, jibe or attempt to stir the pot.

First of all I’d like to thank Chantelle for bringing this up. It’s timely and needful.
I feel a considerable responsibility in some ways for all that has happened. It was I who introduced the mask to the tournaments in Taupo, and it was a version of the Taupo rules that was used in the tournaments where the injuries under discussion above occurred.

If I may, I’ll begin with the fencing mask issue.
I have incredible faith in the humble fencing mask. I’ve worn them since I was 13, and have taken some remarkable hits to head and face in them without receiving injury beneath the mask. However they do not, in any way, protect the back of the head, as this is not what they are designed to do.

So in response to the calls for a solution to the back of the head question; I am all for that.
At which point I’d like to say this:

Seamus’ injury to the back of the neck would have felled me in close helm and chain collar. I have a bit more padding on my collar and jack than Shamus, but nonetheless, it’s our weak spot. Only one of the five helmets I have here would have turned that blow. Those of you with a helmet at home, please check. I’m pretty sure that over half would cause the wearer concern.

So really, honestly and truly, it is my belief that regardless of Shamus turning his head and offering the target, and regardless of the mask; that blow was far more at fault than Shamus kit, or style or anything else. With a man’s entire back presented for a target, why choose there? The ‘heat of battle’ argument won’t wash, either; sorry. If you haven’t the modicum of detachment not to try and murder your opponent, you shouldn’t be in the ring.

So please, find a solution for the back of the head while wearing fencing masks, but please let’s not point all the blame in that direction, because it sure cuts more than one way. No pun intended.


Now we get to the rules issue. This is thorny, difficult and a bit personal, so I am trying hard to exercise that detachment I mentioned above.

The tournament ruleset I use at Taupo is not a work of invention by a single individual. It is the result of a lot of time spent travelling, fighting and learning from a lot of people in a lot of different places. It’s also designed to place safety and an enjoyable experience at the heart of the combat, where it should be.

A tournament is not a pit-fight. It is a carefully controlled artificial environment designed to display martial skill while ensuring the safety of the combatants. The Taupo rules, when applied as a whole do this. Yes, we have injuries when using them, but this is expected. What we haven’t had until now are serious injuries.

You cannot take a familiar set of rules, make small but significant changes to them and expect them to work.

You can’t change ‘break’ to ‘stop’. You have to use the language that the fighters understand. I don’t like the term ‘irish’ at all, but I use it because that is the common jargon of the New Zealand community.

In English speaking countries, we prefer the word ‘break’ because it IS a ‘bark’; as opposed to the soft down-up-down of the word ‘stop’. Not to mention that the sound is more important than the word while one is in combat. It is the sound we hear, not the words within it.

This caused considerable difficulty at the recent tournament.

You can’t allow three warnings for safety. Three warnings means that after the individual’s FOURTH foul blow or potential skull-cracking (hi Seamus ), they are removed. One Warning. No more. We are not here to play games with people’s safety, but to protect it.

This too caused considerable difficulty at the recent tournament.

You cannot require combatants to marshal the tournament they are fighting in. In that ring you are either a combatant or a marshal. Never both. The two headspaces are mutually incompatible. By doing this you are simultaneously taking the fighter’s edge off, resulting in a lack of focus leading to injuries; while at the same time your marshals are distracted and unable to focus adequately on the combat.

This also caused considerable difficulty at the recent tournament.

You can’t allow ‘right of reply’. I understand where the concept came from, but it is a wholly inappropriate response to the question, and the principal cause of the serious accidents that marred the weekend.

One blow, fairly struck, without being struck in the process of delivery.

If you take this away, you remove honesty and honour from the combat. It becomes little more than a brawl, and that is not acceptable when people’s safety is at stake. Not remotely acceptable.

Not only that, but the rule is unrealistic. You will not, in the five or so seconds after taking damage from either a live or a rebated blade, attempt to return the favour. Trust me, I know this firsthand, and so do many of you. By requiring fighters to fight on once the hit is scored, the only logical conclusion to the fight is what we saw at the weekend. Fights that end with one person on the ground. That is not cool at all. We are not here to play games with people’s safety, but to protect it.

This caused the greatest difficulty at the recent tournament.



Putting the fencing mask issue aside for a moment, these are, in my opinion, the key issues surrounding the recent combats. Which begs the question of ‘what can be done’.

Don’t change the language. Stick with what people know, and make sure that you are all training to the same calls. This is actually a pretty important thing, because the call of ‘BREAK’ is our last line of defence as a marshal, before we start leaping into the ring and pulling people apart.

Don’t compromise safety. Which has little to do with armour and everything to do with respect. Create a respectful atmosphere and people will respect it. For those who don’t, the rules will see them ejected, if the rules are applied fairly.

Get some real marshals. Don’t accept non-coms, inexperienced fighters or your mates just because they offer. There are number of people in the community who are extremely competent marshals. If they offer help, it’s only a fool who refuses.

Learn how to fight in a tournament. Don’t turn your back until the hit is acknowledged, and practise real hard at hitting the other guy without taking one in the process. If you are training, under any circumstances, to continue fighting after receiving a good hit, please reconsider this decision.

If you as an individual have a problem with hitting without being hit, you should not be in the ring, and will, in the course of following the rules, be removed from play swiftly after three simultaneous hits. So will your opponent, as he will have proven his own inability in that regard alongside you.

If as a school of fence you have a problem with hitting without being hit, you are doing something wrong, and no amount of rule changing is going to fix this.

So that’s me, folks. Sort the fencing mask back of head issue. That’s primo, and I’ll be having a go just as soon as I can get into my workshop again. Next tournament we run in this country, let’s learn from the last one and make it better, safer and more fun for all concerned.

Nic

[conal]

Yep.

Discipline and Respect.

That's a great start.

I'd written a heap more but Bubba turned the computer off at the wall after tipping over my zombie bits box.

That'll learn me.

The other day he came running out of the kitchen with a carving knife, little tyke.

B was on it in a second, beautiful passing disarm.

Can you believe I got glared at for it.

I mean what am I his trainer? ... oh yeah... hmmm...

Better go see what he's upto.

[gt1cm2]

[gt1cm2]

Conal, can you please resize your picture to something smaller?

[Robbo]

[gt1cm2]

That's great that he was spoken to about it but the problem is that is one example of many where people do see armour and just go for it.

So from the point of view of "being the wifey who has to listen to my husband complaining", why wear extra armour when people just love to go harder? It all comes down to the training the individual's receive which for the majority if not all, that comes down to their club. So it needs to come from a club level to train their members safely.

[AJ]

Hi All

Long time, no post. David pointed this out to me, and I thank him.

I personally think that a unified Marshal training is such a good idea.

We do a Martial Art (Lit. Art of Mars, Roman god of war), what we do is inherently dangerous, just like piloting a 2T piece of metal down the road at 100km. Just like driving a car, we will have a degree of safety when we combine training, safety devices, and regulated enforcers.

We will never agree on everything, just like people argue over fines, speed limits etc, but we should agree on a minimum, and that will a start to build on for the future.

Also, just like a race track, there can be venues for differing rules, differing speeds, and differing force. But if you aren't there, keep to the standard one.

Helm/masks. Well, I've been wanting to get a 'proper' conversion to my helm, but I've been lazy, time to get off my ass and set an example. As for the suitability of masks, I've felt safe in them while fighting some people, and I've felt not felt safe facing others in a full 'cut and thrust' helm.

In AS&S, our first grade isn't about being able to hit an opponent, for winning, it's about being able to fight without hurting your opponent. If you can't do that, we don't want you. However, we recognise that accidents happen (Feet slip, people duck left instead of right, etc) an so we have a minimum safety gear requirement that increases as you go. The only reason it starts low is to get people in, and in the mind set of getting better armour to advance. David is a prime example. He started with gloves, and now is in full plate. (And he looks damn sexy in it.)

Also, if, as a trainer, I see one of my own going near the battle field with a weapon combo I'm not confident they are safe with (Not necessarily good, awesome, or full of win with, but "I know how not to hurt people with") then I will plant my size 9 where the sun don't shine.

Sorry for the rambling, semi-incoherence of my reply, I've been awake for a long time, and am about to do to bed.

If I have said anything to offend someone, then I'm sorry and apologise, as that was not my intent, I just would like to see everyone playing nicely, on the same page, and having fun.

AJ