exploring western military martial arts

[BigMac]

you would proberly have more luck trying to link CQB back to Flos or one of the schools/sallaes (sp?)

TTFN
Bigmac

[Hadrian]

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[Colin]

None of which proves that I.33 was in anyway influenced by the Silk Road trade by the then long since dead Silk Road trade (to Europe).

The Tocharians are a fascinating puzzle, but whether they had a long lasting martial impact into 13th century Europe is even more dubious.

[Hadrian]

The contents of this post were removed at authors request - Admin

[Guest]

[quote="Hadrian"]
'To say that there is no influences between the arts of different cultures,...'

-Influence is not the same as having the same styles [The influence of other cultures on fighting styles between medieval societies (and before) is obviously present; Thier fighting styles were designed to combat each others styles forcing the evolution of combat, as well as learning from each others styles. However just because they are influenced doesnt mean that it makes it western (or eastern) or that the styles werent still distinctly different.]

'The sword and buckler of European 13th century is practiced today in modern India as a cultural dance.... '

- Similarity does not prove causality
[similar weapons and fighting styles will often evolve in two cultures at once. clubs for example, all cultures used them because it was practical (all you had to do was pick up a big stick) and they were used in the same way because it was the most effective (same smacking movements to same target areas; head) the sword weapons and styles evolved from this to diffrent types of sword etc. so as they came from the same place they are always going to be similar (in very early BC wooden swords were used that resemble our steel swords as steel was not readily avaliable or used) , however the cultures/technology put distinct differences in the styles.]

'The answer is that it is European because it has evolved further within the European theatre . Therefore cqb is a European martial art.'

-Selection not evolution created cqb, the techniques and syles have been used not modified, it isnt western
[evolving further does make it european as influences developed to a diffrent style and use would be a competely diffrent style.
However CQB hasnt been an evolution, its been a selection.
It wasnt us seeing what they do and changing it into something diffrent. It was the taking of every martial art from everywhere we could find and scrambling it up and pulling out the crap, only leaving the effective parts. CQB isnt western or eastern, it has everything, its global. saying its western is silly considering a massive percentage is unmodified eastern technique]

'Should any one wish to prove that to themselves please feel free...'

-[one would have to say you are now arguing that you are right and desperatly searching for proof out of a desire for this to be western rather then looking at the obvious overwelming evidence that it is indeed a mix of primarily eastern techniques.]

'masters who taught these techniques passed on the instruction as they do today in professional military by oral means,...'

–What you just described is correct-ish, some was written down, enough to make out almost all the basics, most of the moderate and some of the complex detail. however also oral means is a giant game of chinese whispers, to find accuratly what it was like you look at the unchanged not 100 generations of peoples opinions+knowledge. professional military CQB as you stated as assembled in WWI by learning, collecting and selecting, parts are europen, but that doesnt make CQB european just because a european assembled it.

To fill in the gaps as students of historical European military martial arts we need to fill in those gaps

-???

in the foot hills of the Himalayas where the culture of the men is to dress in pre medieval chain mail ( made from copper rings) wear copper helmets and fight sword and shield in a cutting and thrusting

-[Cutting and thrusting is basicly how you fight, even if you give a sword to someone untrained they cut and thrust.
Also armor swords and sheilds are pretty universal as sword = something to hit, sheilds = something to block, armor = something to protect.
Even little kids will chuck pots on thier heads (armor) and hit each other with spoons (sword) and pot lids (shield)]

'that given to them by crusaders – there oral history refers to a band of Templers who settled there following the first crusadesvisit)'

-[That would make this technique entirly western, simply a bunch of westerners living in the east and teaching it to one village of locals.]

You might be curious as to how I got to be accepted by these villagers and to study under them – In short friends I was married in the pink palace in a traditional ceremony to a (real) princess from Rajasthan

-congratulations!

[Gaius Drustanus]

That's the Taj Mahal, not the Pink Palace, Hadrian. It is a beautiful building, though. How are your children from your previous marriage, Hadrian? Your son Roman and your daughter...... Geraldine?.....?
It has been claimed that European Martial Arts skills went the other way though, eastwards with Alexander the 7th of Macedonia as he went through Afganistan and India founding Greek style city states and satrapies. While they haven't come down to us in writing, Martial Arts skills such as boxing, wrestling, Sword and Buckler (aspis), pike squad (sarissa phalanx), javelin, archery (Paris of Troy), sling and unarmed were all practiced and formalised for events such as the Olympic Games. They are often portrayed on Greek Pottery and in art and sculpture. "300" the movie certainly highlighted what a Martial Arts culture the Spartans had, for example.
Ewart Oakeshott (The Archeology of Weopons) claims the kukri dagger of the Nepalese Gurkas is a descendent of the Hellenistic kopis/falcata sword and there was an article in NATIONAL GEOGRAPHIC about nonmuslim, mountain tribes in Bactria that claim to be descended from Greek soldiers left there as Settlers by Alexander the Great. They are still allegedly worshipping Zeus.
GrecoMacedonian Kingdoms lasted in Northern India, Pakistan and Afganistan as late as 100BCE by way of coin evidence. One of these Greek Kings, (Menander, I think) became a Buddhist Saint. These Bactrian Greeks were very famous for the use of the Cataphract, a very heavily armoured cavalryman, who was covered head to foot with armour and rode a horse that was also armoured. An important find of actual cataphract armour has made in Afganistan at Ai Khanum(referance-"warfare in Ancient Greece" Tim Everson 2004).
These kingdom fell to the Saka (an eastern branch of the Sarmation peoples) but a Greek coin type, known as the Macedonian Soldier type, still turns up in digs for a very long time.
So, in my opinion, there is an argument the the influence in Martial Arts skills came, not from Asia, but TO Asia, from the military/ martial arts culture of the European Ancient West.

[Colin]

I was wondering when Alexander the Great was going to get mentioned. Certainly a more common argument posed is the influence of pankraton on Eastern martial arts from this period. However proof was still lacking the last time I looked.

----

As for I.33 resembling Indian sword and buckler, on what grounds do you make that conclusion?

[Phil Berghan-Whyman]

The fact that people in India practice a fighting art that uses swords and bucklers and has some techniques in common with i33 doesn't prove a connection between the arts. The techniques in i33 are sensible efficient techniques for use by lightly armoured warriors with human physiology. It would not be surprising to find that they were developed independently in different parts of the world.

If the two arts were complex and exactly the same then that would imply a connection, but I don't believe that is the case you (Hadrian) were describing.

If we accept the oral histories (which I don't discount, but they are notoriously unreliable) then some Indian people learnt a European style of fighting from Crusaders in say 1200. Just how likely is it that they didn't, over time, Indianise it? Martial Arts change very quickly, especially in the face of other martial arts. Europeans doing i33 might be described as graceful or poised, but hardly dervish like.

[Gaius Drustanus]

There were Ancient Greeks colonising the distant East well before Alexander the great, Greek Persian-collaborators and Exiles living in Bactria from the days of the Persian Wars settled there by the Archeamenids. The Indians regarded them as vicious and ferocious warriors and called the Bactrian Greeks Yavanas or Yonakas.
But Alexander planted numerous veterans and mercenaries there and elsewhere in the East. Numerous Greek colonies included two Cretan settlements, Asterusia in the Parapamisadai and Daidala in the Punjab and a Pisidian settlement, Salagissa in the Punjab as well. So the Martial skills of Cretan archers and Pisidian javalineers would have had currency in this Greek East as well as that of the cataphract horsemen and phalanx infantry.
Separated from the Seleucid Empire around 250BC these independent Greeks expanded South into Aria,Arachosia and Drangiana, North-east to Ferghana, and South-east into the Paropamisadai mountains, Gandara, the Punjab and the Indus Valley, briefly penetrating as far as as the old Mauryan capital on the Ganges. After 170 and typically for Greeks, they were racked by Civil War. By 130BC the Bactrian Greek were overwhelmed mostly by Saka and Yeuh-Chih nomads. The last Greek State in India fell about 55BC.
The Greeks in India enjoyed the support of Indian Buddhists, since the Sunga kings who had replaced the Mauryas sponsored a Brahman reaction against Buddhism; as I mentioned before the Greek king Menander was considered a Buddhist sage. Indeed a body of 500 Yonakas associated with Menander probably represents an elite bodyguard Unit similar to Leonidas 300.
The last Greek king in India, Hermaios, seems to have been an ally of the Kushans. Tarn connects this with a known Chinese Embassy and suggests that Hermaios held the Parapamisia as a Vassal of Han China!
So the Greeks couldn't have influenced Eastern Martial Arts? you decide.

[Guest]

Great points all around,

[stephan]

i have seen indian buckler fighting in the numerous prades celebraing their culture in queen st

yes it looks similar to the tower fight book
even has similar guards

weapons work the way weapons work and bucklers work the same no matter weather you eat curry or roast pig with a apple

however .. it still was noticeablely diffent in many ways such as {from what i have seen} men fight boys and they dint move in passing steps also they dint use the point

stephan

[Hadrian]

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[quentin]

Cossack and Romanny dancing come immediately to mind.

Also worth noting that we can track cultural movements early in history quite well by the archaeological records of the physical souvenirs which get brought back. The way a jade budda in 10thC Sweden proves trading links east (probably via Byzantium). Very little need to speculate really, data exists……

[Gaius Drustanus]

That's an interesting point. There was recently a programme on SKY about the archeology of the island of Gotland, off the Eastern coast of Sweden, famous for its Viking period picture stones. One was excavated and the teeth of the individual beneath were in a good state of preservation (10th century). DNA testing proved he was originally from Mongolia.
The Seres (Chinese) sent an Embassy to Rome in the days of the Emperor Augustus.
Today in Western China there is a village of Lejun ("Legion") who believe that they are descended from Roman legionaries who were captured by the Parthians at the disasterous battle of Carrhae and shipped to the distant Eastern frontier as slave soldiers. The later Sassanian Persians captured thousands of Roman and Byzantines who met a similar fate. There are Chinese historical records that recount their troops fighting opponents who operate, it has been claimed by some, in the Roman style.

[conal]

Crikey!

An intelligent discussion.

You bastards never cease to amaze me.

Nice stuff on the Alexandrian successor states Praetor.

I'm off to read some Indian History.

thanks guys.

conal.