Seeking advice on helms.

[Daniel Duxfield]

I'm going for a 12/13 century look to fit in with my club, Enge Tocyme, which Mad Jim is forming down here in New Edinburgh.

I'm looking at the Phrygian helm on Hayden's site. Does anyone have any experience with this helm?

Are they good helms? Do they meet the rules? Can I fit and Aventail underneath it?

Throw in your 2 cents worth, please.

Other options are (with aventail) the Kettle helm and the Spangehelm.

[King of Swords]

I took one of these to taupo great helm they seem to sell well I also have butted Aventail second hand for $60 also a new one with leather for about $90...
AB0460 -- Phrygian Nasal Helmet, 14G, Large

The Phrygian style of nasal helm evolved around the Mediterranean and was commonly used by Normans from Sicily during the 12th century.Crafted in 14 gauge steel, with an adjustable leather liner and chinstrap.
$250
Size: Large. and mid
Weight: 5 lbs.

[King of Swords]

B3068 -- Nasal Helm, 16G, Large $217

This helm features a reinforced 10 ga. nasal and is leather lined with a chin strap, ready for use. 16 ga. construction. Size: Lg. Weight: 5-1/4 lbs.
this is a cool helm and it's new on the site so there's not hundreds out there
Made by SAY's

[Daniel Duxfield]

Thanks for those.

Wargod has the Phrygian for a little less than you do, so I'm thinking I may get it from him.

[King of Swords]

You can buy it off anyone you choose, we offer discounts on products to those in reenactment groups who support us, obviously you are not in one.

King Of Swords - Forward Together

[conal]

Like that narrowed nasal on the top picture.

Good for paddock vision.

Peak might be useful too.

Cheers Dave.

[Mad Jim]

Just want to point out that Duxfield is of 'Engla Tocyme'..cheers.

[Victorius]

Advice sought from helmet-makers and other armourers:

Looking at making a bascinet (and later, a visor) using 1.6mm mild steel. Helmet will be made in two pieces, then welded together. Haven't got the steel yet, so I could go as high as 2mm if it'll be safer for WMA. I'll be heating it over an open fire, and raising (not dishing) the steel on a stake.

Not sure if I should get hot or cold-rolled steel, does it matter for working it? Question is, how often can I heat it? Idea is heat the cut sheet (will already be blocked out into one side), then work it until it cools down so it's too hard to keep going. Then I guess I'll have to heat it again. Does constant re-heating make the steel less safe, i.e., more brittle if I do it that way? If so, what is the maximum recommended times I can do this?

I've tried looking online, but they say all sorts of different things. Annealing and hardening, tempering are surely out of the question, as it’s mild steel.

[Oskar der Drachen]

Right.

Heat raising is tricky. Have you done it before? Hot or cold rolled does not really make a difference at this point.

Now, to get steel hot enough for raising you will get scale shattering off the surface of the sheet heated. Figure 1 percent of the steel thickness per layer of scale shed off, each side of the plate. 50 heatings later you won't have much if any left of your plate.

What this means is that if you can do the work with the minimum of heatings you are better off.

If you are going to be welding the two halves together, the thickness lost to the dishing is hardle worth the effort of the much more difficult process of the raising vs. the dishing.

My .02 worth would be to tell you to go with the thicker 2mm steel, dish the two halves to the shape you want and then weld. Your job will be much quicker, and you won't have to do much or any heating at all.

As for the repeated heating and working, working the plate will harden it, heating it will soften it (sorry for the statement of obvious). After a shaping and welding job with mild steel, it's a good idea to heat to a red and let cool naturally to relax the steel into the shape you have put it in.

Mild steel won't really have an issue with repeated heatings barring the scale shed from a really bright red/yellow heat.

[conal]

Nice.

[Victorius]

Cheers for that...

I used to do panelbeating for a living. Raising steel plate (although we used 1mm, not 1.6mm or 2mm) was the way to go, rathe than dishing. The problem I have with the latter is that the part dished stretches. That's often the part of the helmet that receives the most impact.

This isn't as much of a problem with raising, as the stretching happens nearer the edges, where I'll be welding. If I get a reduction from 2mm to 1.6mm to weld, that's not so bad.

However, the reason I asked about heating is that I've tried hammering 1.6mm hot-rolled steel before, and it's a real pig.

[tank]

hi
heres my $0.02

i only realy work with 1.6 cold (which is allready harder than hot rolled)
(becaulse the hot rolled is "aneeled"while its worked)
and i can move it without a problem
2mm is bit of a pig 4 me without heat tho i can move it with a little more force without to many problems
(aka swing the hammer like a madman)
it al depends on the tooling you have
as panal beating hammers are lighter and designed for lighter steel
(im ashuming you mostly have the panal beaters hammers and dollys)
where as the tools i have are probably a little heavyer

question what tools do you have? and sorts of hammers

cheers
tank

[Victorius]

[tank]

sledge hmm i dont realy use em dont need to
but for the poundage they were talking bout (4pound?) is pretty much a "club" hammer the two handers are about 9 pounds
and who will hold the steel while ur bashing it with a two handed sledge?
longer handels are not bad as u can put more force into it

as for ball pens
they are a brillient invention but are only so good at difrent wights.
i have 4 starting at 32 oz and goin down
then there is my moded ballpen dishing hammer
(its made of two 32oz ballpen hammers
made by cuting the iridgjanal ballpen hammer in half at the middle
of the handle and welding the big ends back to back over the handel)
its a probable now about 40-45 oz its a very good disher
i have several difrent moded hammers for difrent jobs
but 80% of my hammers a heavyer than standard panalbeaters hammers

i even have coblers hammers for some jobs


cheers
tank

[Ben]

I find ball peins very useful - the ones I use most often are the 32 oz and a modified 16 (the flat head is now a gentle dome). For the really heavy work I have a 4lb club hammer with one end ground into a hemispherical shape - makes working that 2mm steel a bit easier