Any lessons from Easter Camp?

[Anyad]

Hello,

Dayna here, not an Archer (Andy has done his best, but alas, I suck at it) however, I am a curious bystander/keen 'potential' archer, and keen human target.

But, Craig Gillan suffered an injury at the recent Easter Camp in the combat archery. Wondering, could it have been prevented? If so, how?

Is it also good to have a discussion about the responsibilities of all involved (archers, human targets, field marshals) to make sure that injuries are kept at a minimum in the future?

Everyone is probably a bit raw about this topic so close after the event - and I understand that. I also understand too that "we don't play tiddlywinks", and it is implicit that a certain amount of risk is involved in the hobby as a whole. But, can we do something now so we don't lose an eye?

D

[BigMac]

for those who were not there, what happened?

TTFN

[spidergirl]

Craig was shot in the eye with a combat blunt that was aimed at his head.

He was wearing his full face helm, but it hit his eye slit and managed to penterate through.

The impact opened him up all under his eye, tearing his skin around his eyesocket, and up through the corner of his eye damaging his tear duct. He had surgery yesterday and will be fine, but it was a close call.

Rob the Roman said something about the wearing of modern safety glasses under helms in Oz, which sounds like a good idea! They can't be seen under a full face helm and would stop splinters too.

Another thing to think about might be where we choose to aim, perhaps not aiming for the head? It was certainly an unexpexted outcome, as the ends of the blunts are wider than the slits in most helmets.

[Angel]

If it's the helm I'm thinking of, then looking downward opens up the gap presented significantly, to about an inch, larger than the blunts we use.

I can't recommend mesh enough - covering all gaps in the helmet larger than 5mm in any orientation - except the one you put your head through, obviously.

The problem with trying to restrict target areas is that, well, some people suck at aiming, especially when the aerodynamics of a combat blunt aren't optimal, and if the name of the game is to not get hit, then the person on the receiving end may be inclined to dodge or duck in some way that ends up putting the vulnerable part in exactly the wrong place.

[Mad Jim]

Just a thing on glasses and mesh, when playing airsoft or paintball you are required by pretty much every club to wear such saftey items, mainly for your own protection, and to not remove them until you are off the range or gaming has been called. Just thinking in the likes of archery combat that saftey glasses of partical rated impact would be a good peice of protection although when running about and being phyiscal causes heat and once you stop moving your glasses will fog, which is not really a good idea for this style play and even more so under a helmet!. If putting mesh into your helmet is a major hassel as these things can be, or if you just dont have the extra coin or equipment to do so, you could try for mesh goggles, these are almost like the size of snow goggles and most fit snug up and around your eyes, so under a full faced helm no matter if you look up or down you will be somewhat protected.....

[Bogue]

A simple lesson from Easter with regards to Combat Archery.

NO MESH = NO COMBAT ARCHERY

As for what happened.

A NAAMA legal combat blunt forced its way through the eye slot in Craig's helmet and hit him in the eye. This resulted in a trip to hospital and some surgery.

This was one of those 1 in 10 million sort of shots that happen.
Craig was wearing safety glasses under his helm in the bush battles when smaller tipped arrows were in use, but they continually fogged up. He actually tried on three pairs to get them to fit, It ain't that easy under a full face.
Later, out on the cabin field, there was some combat target shooting and as the arrows had larger (NAAMA) heads Craig put his helm on and went out as a target.

Having looked at his helm and the arrows used he should have felt perfectly safe from this sort of injury as the arrows won't ordinarily fit through the gap. This particular arrow hit at just the right angle to be forced through the gap and impact his lower eye socket.

And especially from Craig who is sitting next to me,
"I just want people to know that in no way do I hold Dee responsible and this incident has reminded us both of our own mortality. We all know and love Dee and this has affected her emotionally as much as it has currently affected me physically. I wish that this issue be left at this point. I'm OK with it being discussed as an issue for safety but for the sake of Dee and myself leave other comments out."

Facts as ascertained.
1; The people involved did so knowing the potential risks.
2; The arrows used were NAAMA Legal combat fluflus.
3; The range was around 25 - 30m.
4; Five archers were firing directly and lobbing in volley at a time.
5; Dee was not aiming at Craigs head.
6; Craig was armoured with breast plate, helm and shield.
7; This could have been worse but accidents happen.

Craig also asks that you remember that unlike Godwinson you can't kill a Dragon unless you take the heart and Haggis has a big one.

Cheers
Bogue as scribe to Haggis

[Gaius Drustanus]

Fogging is a problem when exercise activity happens wearing glasses and Fit is always an issue, especially when you try to match them with helmets. I know. It is a relief to hear that Craig will be O.K. Bogue, please convey to him our best wishes for a speedy recovery and our relief that it was not more serious for him

All the best.

[Anyad]

Thanks Bogue. Nope, no blame - to anyone. Just trying to find out how we can not have it happen again.

D

[paegynwaye]

Thanks Craig,that means alot...I cant hit a stationary target, and yet get a Dragon on the move...
Even a jousters occularium has a maximum sized gap for major protection from potential splinters, yet at Abbey one year Dean Maynard took a direct face hit, and got a splinter through to his eye and blackened it a beauty... Maybe a similar practice could apply for combat archery helm's as well as the mesh covering? Smaller field of vision, yet twice the protection..
Also minimum distance shot to lessen impact...

[Fungus]

Good to hear Haggis is ok
I think the safty standard that Nigel has worked on is the way forward as it will work for S.C.A as well as NAAMA.
Many of us have had arrows shot at us some of us even without helmets (me included) and have been lucky in the past but its not worth the risk.
Even some helmets that are meshed can still be a danger if not attached properly as in the past I cable tyed or masking taped the mesh on my helmet.
Im now going to fix that today and get some xbow bolts shot at it tonight to prof test it

[gt1cm2]

[NigelT]

Hi all,

Unfortunately this is not the first hospitalisation this year due to combat archery. I won't name names, but the other incident was caused by a similar problem. In that case there was mesh attached to the inside of the eye holes but it was (a) thinner than recommended and (b) not attached securely. An arrow hit the mesh and deformed it enough to make contact with the eye resulting in a visit to the hospital. Fortunately again there is no permanent damage.

As has been stressed already the only safe options are to cover up or not play. You don't need mesh over your eye slits provided they're no wider than 5mm. If you have an open face helm there are options you can look at too - including a full-face shaped mesh visor with adequate support so that it can't be pushed or deformed into your face. Remember that you also need to cover the back and sides of your head and your throat. You can take an arrow just about anywhere else on your body and come away with a nasty bruise but an arrow into the head or neck can be a lot worse.

I appreciate that it's unfair to ask melee combatants to change their armour just so that they archers can do some more target practice, so in the coming camps we'll be trying to introduce some more games / scenarios that will require archery safe kit otherwise you don't play. I want to demonstrate that more fun can be had if you get the right kit.

Archery mesh isn't expensive or particularly hard to fit to most helmets. Bogue has offered to bring along mesh and equipment for fitting it to helms at camps, but only if people want to take him up on this. Let him know if you're interested.

Cheers,
Nigel

[AndyMc]

I'm sorry to hear you got injured Craig, and I hope you recover quickly and completely.

I like the idea of the mesh gogles mentioned earlier. If you do not wish to mesh up a helmet, perhaps some sort of ski mask with steel mesh or impact plastic could be cheaply put together?

I think that would stop the fogging problem and provide safety and comfort, whilst giving good vision under the helmet. Would it be worth a try? What do you think?

[Robbo]

[Stuart]

Metal mesh over helms tends to deform, and break up unexpectedly. During a combat it gets hit by shield and sword blows and cracks. An arrow strike will fail it and metal fragments get pushed into the eye-socket compounding any injury.
If you want reliable eye protection go to a gun show and buy a pair of polycarbonate shooting classes. If they can stop exploding primers, sharp edge ruptured cases and high-speed fragments, such glasses will stop a blunt arrow. Mine fit comfortably under a helm ( and they don`t mist up).

This latest incident is the second serious accident incurred by the use of the flawed Combat Archery rules.
The first at Hamilton required a six week stay in hospital. It was not a minor surgery.
Both cases were cased by a shot to the helm.
It stands to reason that the best way to avoid this in future is not to shoot at the helm at all.
Try shooting at the shield or the legs, and you might have less injuries.

-as for the current version of Combat Archery, it should be suspended pending an urgent revision, otherwise this sort of accident WILL happen again.
If you generally allow the shooting of arrows at people`s heads, and injure someone, ACC will justifiably refuse to pay out. Because it will not be classed as an accident.

I wish the unfortunate victim a speedy recovery.