Arrows offered on trademe

[NZArcher]

The arrows offered on Trademe are fibreglass shaft with rubber fletch (similar to those used in bowfishing, plastic nock and the USA LARP approved head. SCA have been bleating about the fact they have not approved the heads, little wonder they tried hitting the auction with a sledgehammer from its inception and none of the complainants has even seen the heads. I personally have no problem with the design or performance but beware the marshalls of SCA. I can also produce wooden shafted arrows for either target or combat. NZtraditional Archery Supplies is rapidly heading to the front of a long neglected field in meeting the needs of NZ Traditional archers whatever disciplne they may follow. To taht end delighted to hear of fellow Trad Archers wants and needs

[Angel]

It wasn't just the heads they were bleating about. The fibreglass shafts also prevent them from being able to be used in SCA combat in NZ and Australia.

Simply put, unless you get your arrows' materials and construction tested and approved by the SCA in New Zealand and Australia, you can't advertise them as being for use in SCA combat in this country (or Australia).

Advertising that "THESE ARROWS ARE ONLY TO BE USED AGAINST OTHER PEOPLE UNDER SCA/LARP COMBAT CONDITIONS" could reasonably be seen as false advertising in that the arrows are quite definitely NOT for use against other people under SCA combat conditions. Deleting the characters S,C,A and / from that statement would prevent all the hoohah.

[NZArcher]

Recognise your name Angel from the bleating flock who attempted to use portions of the total auction to justify their personal inaccurate assumtions If you are to be seen as a moderator administrator who exercises some balance in their position of responsibility may I suggest you take an entire presentation into consideration rather than selecting those portions which are capable of misleading in their seperateness for the only reason of justifying inappropriate reaction. The attitudes exhibited by a very narrow focused group with respect to this one arrow auction do little to further the interests of those genuinely interested in re-enactment in NZ and frankly are the sort of attitude that turns many off any involvement. Little fish in little ponds!

[gt1cm2]

Kelvin,

If you have an issue with SCA or with Angel may I suggest you take it off this forum, either PM or email, attacking a well known and liked person on this board is really not a good look.

portions of this post deleted by admin when thread split as they would no longer make sense

Cindy[/i]

[hopies]

yeah man, dont be hateing - its a really bad look for buissness as I think you may have just pissed off some of your would be best customers.

[NZArcher]

All I expect is equity. The auction in question was misread, pieces have the auction content have been selectively extracted to justify the position taken by those who inappropriately attacked the auction. None of those demanding alteration had seen the items being offered and it has never been claimed they were approved by SCA. IN the interests of public safety it was suggested the use of these shafts should only be under the safe practise codes established by SCA and comparable organisations. The shafts have been approved for use elsewhere and are used in the USA.
If Re-Enactment is to grow in NZ beyond its very narrow base then it will only come about when its current participants move beyond the narrow minded insular attitudes that are currently portrayed. I appreciate the original outburst may have been prompted by an interest in safety BUT how it was done and the subsequent self justification is totally counterproductive'
Whoever these individuals are and whatever their percieved standing is is totally irrelevant from my perspective and that of the general public .The inaccurate and inappropriate approach taken to this issue is what dominates the situation.
I appreciate the re-enactment community will close ranks around its own but would suggest there are times when some commonsense counsel to those who initiated and perpetuate this farce would better serve the interests of all.
It will be interesting to see in what manner those who initiated this storm in a tea cup take a negative and turn it into a positive. Perhaps a deep breath followed by a handle of mead or cider might be a good start.
For my part this is the end of the matter there far more positive things and people to be involved with.

[Bogue]

With regard to the combat arrows.
At $60.00 each I'd expect the damn things to brew a cuppa for me before shooting themselves, so I don't think there is any fear of me buying any. You do state they are suitable for SCA combat when they obviously are not and as the NAAMA combat archery rules are not too dissimilar to the SCA rules then they are unlikely to be suitable for that either. And you have very little idea on how hard it is to refrain from paring back the ears of an elf larper at a medieval event (make 'em all look like "Chopper Reid") personally I find it can be a struggle (refraining not paring).

I do however have a serious question about the Medieval arrowheads you have on Trademe.

Am I correct in assuming (Knowing of course that assumptions are dangerous things) that the weights of the heads should be in grains rather than grams.

If the weights are correct can you tell me what it does to the cast of an arrow when you add between 1/2 and 3/4 of a pound in weight to the head. I can understand that the added weight would lead to a greater impact but at a slower velocity (more like a .45cal slug over a hypersonic type round) and at reduced distance.

Just wondering

Cheers
Bogue

[Angel]

<Moderator hat carefully placed aside>

[Thaner]

i am looking into getting into archery, I want to be able to use arrows on the field without marshalls telling me I cant, NZArcher, without a long contorted sentence rebuking what I say, maybe instead of fighting with all and sundry *cough* hadrian *cough* you could instead talk with people who usually end up with the short stick and marshall (although this is not accurate, marshalling is a huge responsibility)

Try working with them to get something that works and that you can make a buck off at the same time, there is absolutely no point in flogging a dead horse, either you or everyone else. If ya cant use the shafts in NZ then get them field tested and approved by the powers that be, failing that they would tell you what you need for them to be approved.

just my 2cp

[NZArcher]

I appreciate your observations and although I have never acted as marshall at a combat event I can claim to have both authorised and "marshalled" events which have had participants from the USA, Australia, Canada, the UK and goodness knows from where else in the world.
The attitudes and inappropriate manner of adressing a number of issues, which I have a personal association with, is politely described as disappointing. I have found the reactions to issues ,obviously of concern to those commenting, has been far from conducive to serving the greater interests of those the complainants claim to represent. The inability of these ,self appointed vocalists, to appreciate that there are many ways of achieving an objective is akin to religious bigotry. (lets see who rises to the validity of that comment?)
If everyone accepted the full extent of the personal responsibility we all must/should assume at birth then those who have to hang their hats on formalised rule and regulation would be a lost cause and just might get to the stage where they make some positive growth contributions to being a fully functioning human being. We would all benefit.
Unfortunately or otherwise, depends on where you stand, I will always be a thorn in the side of those who can only subscribe to written rule rather than encourage recognition and acceptance of personal responsibility for all actions. (i'm obviously not a socialist)
Might just help if a few recognised that different equals different, not better or worse just different. and that the only certainty in this life is change. Surely a re-enactor is more aware of the latter than most?
Archery ,in all its disciplnes , does much to develop consistency, focus and concentration in all its participants. My efforts will be directed at encouraging as many folk as possible to participate accepting the full extent of the personal responsibility that goes with the enjoyment.
If that means some may find thier comfort zones are frequently given a damnd good shake then Suck it up! you might just be better for it.
Thanks for the suggestions but sorry those who need a rev will get in <nodoubt I will get it as well, BUT the same folk will also have my full support on appropriate occassions

[Thaner]

All people are trying to tell you bud is that you shouldn't be trying to sell something to people implying that they can use it here.

[Thaner]

[NigelT]

NZArcher,

I'm the guy who wrote the NAAMA archery rules and seem to be the one people defer to when they have questions.

Having seen your auction and read your posts in defence of it, I have to say you're really not doing anything to help your own cause.

1. Your arrows are so far outside the NAAMA and SCA rules for use in New Zealand that it's not funny.

2. I don't care if your arrows are safe to use on the field or not. The point is that we've agreed on a set of rules through discussion and collaboration among the reenactment community, both in the SCA and NAAMA. The rules may not allow as wider scope as you would like, but without those rules we might as well be using hunting tips in combat. You may know the difference between what is sensible and what is not, but can you guarantee that the guy pointing his arrow at you does too? This is why we have rules in the first place, so everyone is on the same page.

3. If you think the rules need to be broadened or reworked in some way, the best way to achieve this is by suggesting the idea, discussing it with people in a constructive way and getting agreement from the wider community and making those rules official. Instead you'd decided that the rules don't work for you and are just going to do something else and everyone else be damed because what do they know anyway.

4. I also don't care if you're the best archer on the planet. You have little or no credibility in the reenactment scene because you're a newcomer. If you want people to listen to you then you need to earn some respect. If that's too much for you then I suggest you go play some place else. If you want to stay here then you could try starting at the beginning and working your way forward rather than starting at the end and working backwards. It'll be easier, trust me.

Please don't attack my moderators for offering an opinion. Angel has been doing this for a long time and she knows what she's talking about. If you'd been here longer you'd know that and wouldn't be trying to dig yourself out of this hole. If you have any problem with her voicing an opinion and being a moderator, you take it up with me.

Oh, one more thing - please don't derail other peoples 'for sale' posts with your own advertisments. That's just bad manners. Start a new thread.

Nigel

[Oskar der Drachen]

I've had a look at the arrows you have on auction as well.

I'm from the US, and have authorized and played SCA Combat Archery there. Your arrows would not be legal by SCA-US standards. The foam at the tip is wrong, and (not having handled them) would not exhibit the correct compression performance to be battlefield legal.

I happen to agree with your statements on personal responsibility. That does not translate directly to the ability to make informed decisions on the safety of others though. This is pointedly apparent when your equipment offered for sale does not fit the agreed on (by those who ARE qualified to make informed decisions on other people's safety) rules and standards of performance.

The foam at the tip of your arrows appears to be other than closed cell foam, and not thick enough to allow for enough progressive give on impact. It is not taped, and therefore prone to ripping off when it strikes armour. The striking surface behind the foam is flat (and of unknown hardness, another potential fail), and the edge of which would penetrate the bars of a standard bar grille helmet by more than 1/2 inch, or 13mm. The nock of your arrows does not have an anti-penetration device to stop it going through a bar-grille of a helmet if it should strike while travelling backwards, or on a bounce-back from another persons armour.

By my count that is five (or six depending on how you count) separate instances of where your ability to make informed decisions on what is safe on the battlefield faulty. That also makes your Personal Responsibility flawed for not knowing what the rules are, why they are, and how your gear fails to qualify under them.

I hold no knowledge of, nor make any claim on the rules of another game where you might have used this gear.

[Oskar der Drachen]

And just as an added comment, I am talking about the SCA-US rules, not the Lochac ones. I think you claimed to have used these arrows in the US? Not on any official SCA battlefield I know of.