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Hawkwind™
Location: Auckland
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 Posted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 11:17 am This should be good |
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Posting here mainly because I have been following Mr. Warzecha's instructional videos for a while, and while he does German combat, which is not really my field of interest, Istill think that he rates in the top 4 people I have ever seen in terms of his form. Having said that I have never seen him in an actual fight, so this:
http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?t=97590
could be grand, especially if the video turns up.
posted here so's other people can follow it, and because this is one of the coolest and most honourable challenges I have seen (Joram's challenge still taking first place for me though) |
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Hawkwind™
Location: Auckland
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Hawkwind™
Location: Auckland
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Colin
Location: Wellington
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| Posted: Fri Sep 18, 2009 11:32 pm |
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Thanks. I'm a big fan of Sean Hayes (since he has elaborated at length on explaining tempo) , so it was good to see this in action 
Roland has come a long way!
_________________
The person who writes for fools is always sure of a large audience.
- Arthur Schopenhauer
See http://www.swordsmanship.co.nz/ |
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Hawkwind™
Location: Auckland
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| Posted: Mon Sep 21, 2009 12:38 pm |
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| Colin wrote: | | he has elaborated at length on explaining tempo |
Really? Where might I find some of that elaboration, we have been doing a lot on tempo recently. |
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Colin
Location: Wellington
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| Posted: Mon Sep 21, 2009 1:29 pm |
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This post has been deleted by Carl as per a request from another member.
_________________
The person who writes for fools is always sure of a large audience.
- Arthur Schopenhauer
See http://www.swordsmanship.co.nz/ |
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Hawkwind™
Location: Auckland
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| Posted: Mon Sep 21, 2009 3:48 pm |
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| Colin wrote: | | As a result of that exchange my circlings have since always been done the way Sean said to do it (and I'm very insistent on doing it this way with any and all my students). |
and that is? |
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Colin
Location: Wellington
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| Posted: Mon Sep 21, 2009 6:47 pm |
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I demonstrated this repeatedly to you when you did German longsword with me.
In essence use your weapon solely rather than your arm/body to swap sides. The vast majority of people (like Sinclair), by instinct, use the latter. Pulling back the hand (say to "charge it") is a tempo and then to place it on the other side is another tempo, hence most people do this dui tempi whereas if you describe an Aristotleian single motion with the sword you're only using strezzo tempo. I hope that makes sense at any rate. If you think back to when you did German longsword you should get the picture. I don't do it justice like Sean Hayes did.
Tom Leoni in SPADA (II?) did a pretty neat job of it as well. (It might have been the other journal Chivalry Bookshelf did come to think of it.)
_________________
The person who writes for fools is always sure of a large audience.
- Arthur Schopenhauer
See http://www.swordsmanship.co.nz/ |
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Hawkwind™
Location: Auckland
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| Posted: Mon Sep 21, 2009 7:17 pm |
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how does that relate to feet in terms of tempo, for example if I defend and strike (in any way) with a single foot step, does that differ to using the same hand motion in two footsteps (well actually I suppose I mean a pass and recover with the back foot)?
This is of interest to me because I have also been looking at silver, and I have been using my feet as a guide to tempo, but then silver has time of the hand, in which feet don't move, but then it also occurs to me that this is what you would have called krieg in german longsword, and therefore not a valid position to be in. |
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Colin
Location: Wellington
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| Posted: Mon Sep 21, 2009 11:15 pm |
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| Hawkwind™ wrote: | how does that relate to feet in terms of tempo, for example if I defend and strike (in any way) with a single foot step, does that differ to using the same hand motion in two footsteps (well actually I suppose I mean a pass and recover with the back foot)?
This is of interest to me because I have also been looking at silver, and I have been using my feet as a guide to tempo, but then silver has time of the hand, in which feet don't move, but then it also occurs to me that this is what you would have called krieg in german longsword, and therefore not a valid position to be in. |
Silver's definition of time belongs mostly to the Italian concept of proportion rather than tempo. Every single one of Silver's True times is strezzo tempo, but each of them has a different proportion. Of course Silver's false times are a little trickier to place on this scale, but hopefully that makes sense.
Two footsteps no matter how you slice it is at minimum dui tempi (Fabris states that even a single foot movement is dui tempi by definition: lifting the foot and landing the foot). So yes doing two footsteps does differ from a single step from a time perspective. However this isn't necessarily a bad thing as "Doebringer" states that it is better to do two small steps than one large one. Though in my interpretations the second step, even in recovery is setting up advantageous offence (as far as I'm concerned every tempo must set up the potential for offence otherwise you're achieving little and giving the fight to your opponent).
Time of the hand is a valid place to be in. It's definitely not a good place to be if you're in your adversary's time of the hand though  It's better when you're at your time of the hand, but he isn't at his ("the true place" or noble kreig to be German ).
Capo Ferro has the closest working definition of tempo to Silver's True times that I've come across in the Italian fencing systems.
_________________
The person who writes for fools is always sure of a large audience.
- Arthur Schopenhauer
See http://www.swordsmanship.co.nz/ |
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Hawkwind™
Location: Auckland
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| Posted: Tue Sep 22, 2009 8:16 am |
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| Quote: | | Silver's definition of time belongs mostly to the Italian concept of proportion rather than tempo. Every single one of Silver's True times is strezzo tempo, but each of them has a different proportion. Of course Silver's false times are a little trickier to place on this scale, but hopefully that makes sense. |
Hahaha, um not really. 
I have never heard the term proportion, I am guessing that you are using it here to say that say a half time is going to happen in half the proportion of time that your opponent is able to attack in, that is what I would refer to as mezzo tempo, but you seem to be saying that this is proportion and tempo is somewhat different. I don't get that, I suspect my concept of tempo differs, especially in the light of you saying that Silver is all in single time. I admit that I am very new to Silver, but it does not seem to be all in single time to me. Can you explain to me the difference between tempo in this instance and proportion as far as you understand it? |
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Colin
Location: Wellington
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| Posted: Tue Sep 22, 2009 9:04 am |
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| Hawkwind™ wrote: |
I have never heard the term proportion, I am guessing that you are using it here to say that say a half time is going to happen in half the proportion of time that your opponent is able to attack in, that is what I would refer to as mezzo tempo, but you seem to be saying that this is proportion and tempo is somewhat different. I don't get that, I suspect my concept of tempo differs, especially in the light of you saying that Silver is all in single time. I admit that I am very new to Silver, but it does not seem to be all in single time to me. Can you explain to me the difference between tempo in this instance and proportion as far as you understand it? |
Mezzo tempo is the action of splitting your adversary's time in half. I mentioned Capo Ferro since he's a bit of an outlier in the usual tempo terminology. His mezzo tempo is identical to Silver's time of the hand. However Capo Ferro's mezzo tempo differs to most other definitions of it in the Italian fencing systems.
Capo Ferro's half time, time, and time and a half correspond to Silver's time of the hand, time of the hand and body, and time of the hand, body and foot. By deduction an attack on the passata would equate to Silver's time of the hand, body and feet and if using Capo Ferro's increments would mean a double time (however Capo Ferro never states a time for this).
So if you're using Capo Ferro as your introduction to tempo I see your point. It isn't how most other Italian fencing masters defined tempo.
Proportion is an extremely important concept in fencing. It aligns with tempo, but allows for longer/shorter time to still fall into the paradigm of actions. For example a shoulder cut (done properly) is still a single time, but is slow. Therefore it is proportionally larger than an elbow cut, but both can be single time. Proportionally defence must take into account the proportion offence was given. In other words defence against a shoulder cut requires a proportionally larger defence than a defence against an elbow cut for example (i.e. power generation doesn't dissipate into the ether just because you did a weak parry...but most sport versions of "historic sword play" I've witnessed penalise offence thus weak parries "work" and the concept of proportion flies out the window).
Thus I stand by my original point. Silver's true times belong to the category of proportion. Each increment in the true times is proportionally longer than its predecessor. Capo Ferro's definition of tempi are akin's to Silver. (Though I can quote Capo Ferro where he supposedly contradicts himself on tempi and agrees with the more typical Italian definition.)
_________________
The person who writes for fools is always sure of a large audience.
- Arthur Schopenhauer
See http://www.swordsmanship.co.nz/ |
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Callum
Sponsor
Location: Upper Hutt
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| Posted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 12:44 pm |
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As you are probably aware, I am more interested in practical usage of concepts as opposed to academic discussions on them (although you have to intellectually understand them in order to use them in a practical context so thanks for your posts above Colin).
So to get right down to basics and practical application of the above discussion, I take it as meaning:
1. Use correct timing (e.g. time of the hand).
2. Use minimal footwork.
3. Where possible make everything you do cause the opponent to react to you as opposed to you reacting to them, e.g. control the initiative.
4. Do all of the above without getting hit youself.
_________________
Callum Forbes
Order of the Boar - www.jousting.co.nz
Order of the Boar Historical Foot Combat -
www.hapkido.org.nz/upperhutt.html |
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Colin
Location: Wellington
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| Posted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 1:21 pm |
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Nice summary Callum
_________________
The person who writes for fools is always sure of a large audience.
- Arthur Schopenhauer
See http://www.swordsmanship.co.nz/ |
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Callum
Sponsor
Location: Upper Hutt
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| Posted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 1:22 pm |
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| Colin wrote: | | Nice summary Callum |
Thanks Colin. The trick is now learning to do this 100% of the time myself 
_________________
Callum Forbes
Order of the Boar - www.jousting.co.nz
Order of the Boar Historical Foot Combat -
www.hapkido.org.nz/upperhutt.html |
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