Putting my Greek garb together

[Daniel Duxfield]

Well, I feel like I've popped my re-enactment cherry, as it were lol.
I spend some time over the last few days making my 5th century Greek clothing. I have a woollen chlamys (cloak), a light cotton exomis (an off the shoulder thingee), and I'm starting on a tunic today.

Point of note: these garment are light and somewhat revealing. Good thing I have nice legs. lol. I'm going for mostly authentic and close to the real thing as I can make them. Good thing is that it doesn't involve a lot of sewing.
Also no trousers. they're too effeminate.

I'll upload some pics when I'm done, the Romans might be interested. Ironically I live near Dunedin, so I can't imagine wearing them much in winter. brrr. They certainly weren't made for southern temperatures.

[Gaius Drustanus]

WELL DONE DUXFIELD! If I wasn't up to my earlobes in being a Military Consul posted in the Roman Province of British Dumnonia, I would potentially like to do Living History Ancient Hellas. Maybe ancient Athens (not quite as totalitarian, thuggish and gay as Sparta), the cradle of western democracy and with serious Intellectual/Academic/Cultural mega cred.

In terms of reenactment martial arts, How to make a Macadamia Nut Phalanx Pike Squad work on the Battlefield? could be a lot of fun.

I don't know why they call them Hoplites! Look more like Hopheavies to me. Be assured, I know there are other closet Hellenes in the (Medieval) Living History reenactment scene in New Zealand, but it is not my job to Out them. You will have to set a leadership example.

On the Costume front and For your wet weather/Winter Garb, why don't you think as well about being a Greek with links to the Ancient Greek city of Olbia in the Bosphoran Kingdom of the Crimea, the southern edge of the former Soviet Union and on the Northern Coast of the Euxine/Black Sea?.

Plenty of opportunity there for making much warmer cosier Cold Weather garments worn by the Scythian/Sarmation influenced Greeks of those distant Crimean parts, and much more suitable for your current location close to the caledonian Dun Edin, otherwise known as the Fort of the pictish Votadini ("Edinburgh" to the barbarian Angles).

I think Scythian hats are cool too.

[Mad Jim]

good to hear that your making some Greek garb, would be cool to see, I have been busy making high medieval period gears..hose/tunics/hoods etc..

[Daniel Duxfield]

OK, I don't know who you Roman guys get on with your togas, but the Greek version took me the better part of a hour to figure out and that was with instructions! lol

Anyway, I've got some good costume now. Although a small warning, for those of you who are keen on being super authentic, you'll have to allow me the use of modern underwear or I may get a few complaints about "bits" being seen. If you catch my drift.

Greeks you see, have this thing about showing off their bodies and being proud of them, which I don't mind, I'm in good shape so I agree. But their clothing leaves little to the imagination.

So if you don't mind a little extra skin showing, then we'll get along fine.

And no, I won't be fighting nude or with only armour and nothing to cover the aforementioned "bits". Lots of the reference material I've found shows hoplites wearing nothing from the waist down. However I will be assembling a modified version of hoplite armour to fight in.

Aside from that I look forward to having fun in my new clothes.

[Daniel Duxfield]

Gaius, just to correct you. Sparta had the first form of democracy and more freedoms for women than those 'boy loving Athenians'. Not that I'm offended.

But given the choice, I'd rather be a Spartan citizen than an Athenian one. Given that my daughters would be able to take part in athletics, sports and everyday life. Such things were forbidden to Athenian women, who weren't even allowed to leave the house without their husband's permission.

[Robbo]

RAWR!

[Gaius Drustanus]

Good point Duxfield and humbly I stand corrected. Not that I'm offended. Perhaps Militaristic is a better word than Totalitarian (Lycurgas, wasn't it?) and certainly Bisexuality (indeed pederasty) was common in Athens. Really all the Greeks had little concept of "Sexual Preferance" and boy loving was socially O.K. almost everywhere: "women are for Breeding and Boys are for Pleasure."

The puritanical Republican Romans loathed this of the Greeks. Both Alexander the Great and his father Philip II of Macedonia were noted for homosexual preferances (or more aptly Trysexuality in Philip's case). The modern Hellenes hate this racial sexual rumour about Greeks too just like the Ancient Romans.

I guess that it is the Agoge of Sparta that concerns me with social elements that seem abusive for little boys.


For a Toga Pattern I recomend the one in the Glossary/Back Pages of Colleen McCullough's wonderful book "First Man in Rome" (remember "The Thorn Birds"). The down side of a suitable Toga is finding affordable 18 metres of undyed pure Wool with something close to a suitable width. I got mine from a fabric supplier in Queen Street, Auckland CBD.

When it comes to Hoplite Armour Cuirass I recommend "Linothorax". I used to have a step by step pattern given to me by a Sydney Ancient back in the 1990s. However that was mislaid years ago. A good pattern can be found "Greece and Rome at War" by Peter Connolly

[Gaius Drustanus]

Robbo Quote: "RAWR!"



Is it channeling? Robbo thinks he is Heath Ledger!

[Robbo]

Hmmm...we're both Aussie's...we've both used swords...we've both fallen off horses...he was the joker...I get called a clown...we've both been known to go brokeback...He wore make up...I went drag...He's slept with most of the women of the women in Hollywood...I've dreamed about it...



And we both have 10 Things I Hate About You.

[Daniel Duxfield]

Thanks Gaius. Had a look online and found a pattern, a PDF of instructions and numerous websites of debate and commentary on the Linothorax.

It doesn't look too hard to make and they seem to be pretty durable. I am thinking however I will look at adding metal scales to the front and back and attachments for pauldrons. I'm going to need to ensure that I have adequate protection from the blows of those uppity Vikings.

[Gaius Drustanus]

The Good Thing you can say about Robbo, at least, is that he is an Australian.

Thank you Dux. I would CERTAINLY and without doubt put scales on the front on your linen thorax (but I might question the practicality/weight issues of putting squamata {scales} at the back of your linothorax - your call really). Scales, if made well, are authentic, look great and are good protection.

Attachments for Manica/pauldrons are also good from a safety point of view. The one thing that the ever practical Sydney Ancient did say to me however is this: Use Cotton, not linen; it's cheaper, works the same and no one can tell the difference.

Over to you. Good luck and all the best.

[Gaius Drustanus]

Duxfield quote: "uppity vikings"


Hi Dux

(I apologise in Advance to the Mods as I am about to breach the Non-Digression Pact.)



I was just thinking about your comments about Sparta (and I am certain Sparta seemed much like totalitarianism to the Helots with the "Krypteia" looking much like the former KGB - the origin of our modern word "cryptic") and having a reverie about Spartans fighting uppity vikings. On the face of it an unlikely occurance historically

In the Augustan period Sparta was a bit of a tourist destination ghetto, techniquely an enclave outside Roman Empire domination but economically dependent as a bit of a Sado-masochistic sex tour "Bangkok" type destination of the ancient world .

Perverts would go there for a B&D "Bondage and Discipline" themed holiday village where the local pimps would put on "shows" in an arena involving Disneyland recreations of the traditional Agoge of Sparta and you could try on antique sets of Armour ("really worn by Leonidas and the 300"). It was a great money spinner.

In 395 A.D. the truculent Goths finally sacked the village of Sparta (Visigoths - "uppity Viking" wannabees if ever there were), and the Spartiates finally abandoned the location as indefensable and moved somewhere else. Sparta was finished.

This is a scenario where you could imagine Spartiates (wearing antique armour?) fighting "uppity vikings" (Goths) wannabees in History. The Goths, immigrants originally from Sweden and the island of Gotland in the Baltic. Sort of.

[Daniel Duxfield]

Yes, Sparta had it's time.
A large contribution to it's downfall was that it's leaders were overly conservative and failed to adapt to the events of their times. The lack of walls around the city wouldn't have helped in a siege either!

I mentioned fighting Vikings for the simple fact that when I have all my assembled kit and start making it to the camps guess who I'll be fighting, aside from you Romans . . . . Norse (or Vikings).

I'll be going with practicality over true authenticism, but I think it would be an interesting to see how Hoplite and Viking warriors would go in a fight.
Spear (Dory), shield (Aspis) and short sword vs round shield and sword or axe.

Having sparred with Mad Jim and his longsword with my practice Aspis, dory and short sword, I can tell you it's quite a learning experience as a fighter. The results were being; if the long swordsman can use the point of their sword correctly, can get above or around the 40" Aspis to score a hit on the hoplite. The dory I found was great for creating distance between us and getting under Jim's arms when he lifted his arms and the long sword above his head. So if you expose your torso to the hoplite there is a very good chance they will thrust their spear into it! Unless you have shield yourself.

We did get tied up once and when I tried to remove my dory out from under Jim's arm. His long sword was down the front of my shield, under my arm, a good hit too! I pulled my hand back and . . . . snap! It's made of pine, so it broke.
Default to short sword; Jim used his long sword to great effect at keeping me away from him, my slashing blows were to no effect as my reach was too short. I would then have to either try a shield bash or short charge to lessen the distance and get a hit or two in with my short sword.

But all in all, the two fighters are pretty evenly matched.

I'd be keen to try a variety of weapons with you guys. I've been used to the bokken/samurai sword for sometime. That being the weapon I am most skilled with. But I am keen for any challenge, just for the learning experience and the chance to increase my skill level.

[Robbo]

Come talk to me at Christmas dude, can show you some nice easy movements with a short sword that drive long swordsman crazy.

Spears. We use ash in the Southern Norse. durable, sturdy, take a Hel of a punishment and isn't overly heavy. If you can manage a bronze shield, I reckon you're ok for finding some cheap ash down there dude. :p

Fighting Norse:

1. Don't fight defensively. Every Norseman I know expects it, loves it and drives forward against it.

2. Shield work. Master it. The amount of people I've seen go flying ( or merely crumple) vs Norse combatants is disturbingly high ... and the larger reason is 90% of Norse fighters love their shield work. It's an extension of the arm and used as much for defence as for offence. Shield work is key.

3. Foot work foot work foot work. Truly scary how many people move to engage their opponent, stop, set their feet and fight from there. Most norse start moving forward and just keep going :p

Talk to you more about it over a beer dude.

[Gaius Drustanus]

One reason for the Decline of Sparta, IMO, is that to be a Spartiate ie a citizen of the City, in the eyes of the Law, BOTH parents had to be full blood Spartans. The rest of the hoi polloi were either Perioicoi (did I spell that right?) or Helots. So over the generations, the number of Citizen Spartans who were eligible to fight in the Phalanx dropped, and dropped, and dropped........... Then it only took one or two major battlefield disasters/ massacres and.....................

Is your Short Sword a Xiphos (Tsword) or a Kopis/falcata (the one that looks a bit like an Napali Kukri)? The sources say the Spartans fought with a sword about as big as a Toothpick.

However there are a few Ancient Greek leaf blade Swords in the record that are similar in length and style to the medieval longsword or the rapier style Roman Spatha longsword. I've seen one (Connolly) from the preClassical early iron Age and the early Bronze Age Minoans and Myceneans fought with Rapiers.

According to the Osprey book on the topic, Greek Mercenaries who left Hellas after the Peloponnesian Wars to serve with the Persians, fought with longswords. So that is actually another option for you to play with. Good luck.