How important is it to be part of a club?

[Hawkwind™]

[Freebooter]

With utmost respect, Rob, I think you're misreading me, and I apologise for any obscurity in what I may write.

I'll try and be really clear.

1) The Cambridge armistice event, which we sadly missed you at, Rob; was made up of the contubernium and ... a bunch of independants. Nobody went bazoo and started charging the audience, we got on and did a fine, professional job, and made the Romans look good in the process. In addition, the fabulous gang of barbarians charging the line at Taupo was made up of no small number of independants, in addition to the main players, who were core members of the Argent Court.

2) I hate to have to say it, but a fair number of your "list" have come from your own ranks. I WILL NOT name names in regards to this thread, but as far as I am aware, there are more active independants of good character and standing than there have been rejected/independant loonies.

3) Clubs devote resources to the re-enactment of their idiom, whatever that may be. There is currently no group in this country who practises my core interest, namely late North Italian Renaissance in the period 1550-1580. Therefore I must be independant. (Ben's informal group notwithstanding). Nor are there Napoleonic groups, Jacobite groups, Wars of the Roses groups or Conquistadores. I happen to be fascinated by all of those, but what would be the point in devoting the resources of a club devoted to c.1250 to those ends. None. Therefore independance is necessary until a group can form.

4) I completely agree that clubs should not operate as gangs. Nor should a single member of a club attempt to redirect the club to his or her ends. Ethics. Therefore, independant.

5) As an independant, I have "paid it back" one heck of a lot more than I ever would have as a member of a club. For this reason alone, I respectfully must resent your position and the painting of independants as nut-jobs. It's all very well to say that "this doesn't include you, Nic", but the fact of the matter is that this is not about me. It never has been, and never will. This is about independants and their value to re-enactment in this country, and I firmly believe that we are necessary and essential to the ongoing evolution of re-enactment in NZ. So far nothing you have mentioned proves that statement wrong.

[ann dugmore]

Clubs are invaluable particularly for newbies: for training - passing on skills and ensuring standards of safety; having someone to practise against; information - saves having to buy EVERY book or be knowledgable about absolutely EVERYTHING ; organising events - feasts, displays,camps, workshops; exchanging/borrowing equipment - what is the point of having 6 swords (Alex)?; friendships - cheaper than dating agencies(!); delegating responsibilities - swordsmaster/ archery expert/dance master/ craftsmaster/ brewer etc - the list goes on.......

But if there is not a club in your discipline or locality or you are natural hermit/anchorite then that's fine too!

Ann

[Robbo]

[Gaius Drustanus]

Well we only speak from experiance, Nick (not inconsiderable on my part and going back nearly two decades). I regret your emotions of resentment and apologise in Advance.


The only reason why, Nick, there is a Roman group in New Zealand (the only one that prominently operates in the Ancient World as a club) is that I had a passion for that period, saw similar groups personally in Australia, read of their existance (Ermine Street Guard etc) in the U.K and saw the need for one here. So around 1993, the Second Legion Augusta came into existance.
I experimented with other enterprises during the 1990s: Praetorians, Batavian Auxillaries and Greek/Macedonian phalangites. Club attrition is pretty savage, the hobby is not cheap and some Punters (as I said before) are running some other hidden Agendas.
There might be a niche atm for pre500AD archery. I guess I am a bit of a club entrepreneur.
For very many years (decades?) I encountered very nasty and personally directed backlash etc. That only made my determination more dogged.
I also have many nasty tales of unpleasant "Independents" often claiming "high ideals". Before they drop off the radar various sorts of collateral can be observed. New Zealand and the local scene are very small compared to OS.
Perhaps there are other types of independents and maybe I don't always unfortunately get to meet them.
If you or others are drawn to other periods of Reenactment: Renaissance, Napoleonic or Jacobite etc, whatever, go ahead, good luck, be my guest. I'll be among the first to applaud.

[Carl]

Clubs....clubs....things for hitting people....no...the other thing Ok

For me being part of a club gave comradeship, friendship, and a stepping stone onto other things.
I would never have gotten involved with re-enactment without being part of a club (i am not that kind of person) my years as part of the KD and Sword and Shield were the best years of my life full of the highest highs and lowest lows, they taught me to how to rise above adversity, how to survive heartbreak, and how to find strength in myself when I thought there was none to be found.

all things that I never would have experienced as an independant.

I am now independant because that is where my path has taken me and one day I will be part of a club again (what club that is i do not know), but to me that means freedom.

but the clubs that I have been part of still give me a lineage if you will that allows me to see where I have been, and being able to see the path i have already walked allows me to see the path before me.

what i am trying to say is that Clubs promote growth they are the nursery where the saplings of our community can grow into the Oaks that provide the strength to hold us together.

as Kipling said "The strength of the pack is the wolf, and the strength of the wolf is the pack"

[Freebooter]

It's not personal for me, Rob, so please understand that I am arguing a position here. My resentment of your position is likewise, not personal, and my response is as an independant who feels his position under question in a negative light. I still love you, Consul.

I know and understand your input into the creation and continuation of Ancient Re-enactment in NZ, and applaud you most emphatically for it. Fact is, though, in forming the club, you, yourself most have been independant of the other clubs to do so.

The point being that not all independance of a club structure is something to be frowned on, and that independants can and frequently do come to the rescue of clubs when needed, as do clubs aid individuals with whom they are friendly.

- At which point I would like to say a big thank-you to Auckland Sword and Shield for their support in the last few weeks, and the loan of their trailer, which I shall soon return -

[Victorius]

[Robbo]

Going to use my safe word. Leave those of us with mental illness out of this pls. I can suggest you go refer to the NZ Bill of Rights, the UN Bill of Rights...or my Right Big Toe. *wags big left finger*

Issues may have arisen regarding this subject in the past, in other areas, but those who moderate this forum have also asked that it be left off here.

Onto other stuff.

[Gaius Drustanus]

Utopia.

Well then the ernest DoGooders have promised us a Brave New World of only rational independents. A Glorious Platonic Republic....................
Do I feel a Tui Ad coming on?


BTW I still enjoyed "Robin Hood" movie a second time, despite the fact that I saw it only last night. Thank you to those members of my own club and the other clubs (for tonight and last night), and indeed independents, who made our medieval foray so successful for this cinema opportunity.
I apologise that the Cinema admin were a bit shabby tonight.
They will probably do better next time.
And I would make the point that it is far more profitable (in free cinema tickets) to be a friend of Rome than an enemy, and stay home watching mundane telly on your own.

[Gaius Drustanus]

Oh. And while we are discussing the advantage of clubs, just a little while ago, Mike Hansen and Tina Helg, with Errol's support, made a Movie about the Second Legion Augusta called a "A Passion for History". They also included a generous segment on Roman Crucifiction in their Taupo Documentary. Thank you Guys.
While there were one or two eventual ring-ins in that "snapshot" of the Legion at the time, I would imagine that you had a far better Chance of featuring or appearing in the film if you were a member of the Roman Legion or a supporter and friend of the group. You have to be in to win.
Patch and Stefan are two friends of Rome who hopefully benefitted from their generous support by significantly appearing in the Movie. It's nice to see yourself up on the big screen.

[Freebooter]

I'm bowing out now, as I am a bit fed up with being wilfully mis-interpreted.

Bye.

[Lissa]

As a combatant, I find that being a part of a club is important. I would find it infinitely difficult to practise combat skills if I were an independant. There is a wealth of knowledge and skill in a club and I find that incredibly helpful being new to re-enactment.

I dont think I could ever really be an independant purely because the club connections and team morale is not something that I can turn my nose up at. It is a sense of belonging and I am always learning from them. Cant beat it.

[Bogue]

I used to be part of a club.
My wife also used to be a member of this same club.

We left the club.
She withdrew from the game almost completely.
I withdrew to a point where I class myself as an independent.

To me, being part of a club was about camaraderie and hard work.
The camaraderie of the people around you and the hard work of being one of a few within the club prepared to do the work.

Gone are the days when a club officer could call "Fall In" and all would appear to see what was required of them.
Instead you get the usual suspects fronting up to do the grunt work.

AS IS THE CASE IN ANY CLUB OR ORGANIZATION.

If you look at any club or group in any sport or pastime you will find that there are approximately 5-10% of the group doing all the work with the remainder just going with the flow.

After talking, over the years, I have realised that in many cases it was because nothing was ever expected of them or they were never asked to help.
Isn't that why they became a part of the group, to share a common interest and participate in a social interaction.

In every group there will be 3 kinds of member: Swimmers, Floaters and Sinkers.

Swimmers do all the work and bolster a club and it's reputation. They are also the ones who burn out quickest and then fade away.

Floaters just go with the flow but can easily become swimmers with encouragement and effective guidance.

Sinkers go through the motions but continually whine when expected to do anything proactive for their group. They are also the earliest to fade away from a group and often this will improve the general feeling in the club.

Clubs are important for gaining members.
They provide a good basis for training and equipment.
They are a resource available to their members in that within a group there is a font of knowledge and handed down gear.
A club is only as strong as its membership.
Joining a club is a declaration of intent to work for the good of the group as a whole, be prepared to work at it.

I think that's about all that was floating through my gourd at this time.

cheers
Bogue

[Gaius Drustanus]

Well Said, Lord Bogus.

As Consul of the Romans in this Province, it is my task to advocate for the Legion, but Bogue has certainly made some very astute comments about Clubs. Their shortcomings.

Sadly there is a fourth Group of participants. These are "Saboteurs". Consciously or subconsciously, these slime join a group and have the effective outcome, sooner or later, of wreeking Havoc. Frequently the competition and dissenters will quote these Cowboys to damn a club. It's OK Mod Squad, I wont name names.

Nick, by no means am I suggesting that all Independents, by any means, fall into this category. It's just, as you said yourself, so charitably, I seem to have had more than my fair share.

Perhaps the glamour of "Roman Imperium" appeals thereunto when it comes to some of these. I don't know.

Bogue, you are welcome to join our club, no strings attached.

Clubs are still a good thing and if run properly and genuinely for the benefit of members, IMO should be supported. I guess that's a big "if", but site rules preclude citing specific instances of otherwise. Naming names.

Clearly Clubs are a springboard for senior "Independents" as has been frequently mentioned and admitted, and really clubs should be evaluated on the basis of "Good Faith". These "Independents", by their own admission, exist because of clubs.

Nothing to be gained by "club bashing".