Dagger fighting

[King of Swords]

Could I please have your thoughts on what is a dagger ...........
A dagger is a double-edged blade used for hitting, stabbing or thrusting. They often fulfill the role of a secondary defense weapon in close combat. In most cases, a tang extends into the handle along the centreline of the blade.

Daggers may be differentiated from knives on the basis that daggers are intended primarily for stabbing whereas knives are usually single-edged and intended mostly for cutting. However, many knives and daggers are capable of either stabbing or cutting.

and what size before it becomes a short sword ...
You know as in dagger fight one guy has a dagger that's less then 30cm and the other a dagger larger then 30cm..is there any governing
rules about this in either the naama or SCA rule book

[Ben]

I Can't think of any hard rule in NAAMA that differentiates between a dagger and a short sword.

There's a point where it becomes long enough to "feel" like a sword rather than a dagger, it varies from person to person though.

As a rule of thumb I was taught that if you put the end of your fingers on the cross guard and lay the blade along your arm a weapon that doesn't reach your inside elbow is a dagger and one that reaches past it is a short sword (~350 - 400mm for me).
It gets a bit fuzzy when they're close, but you can generally tell when you try to use the weapon.

[Robbo]

I've always considered a dagger to have a cross-guard, a knife not to. Those knives with cross guards tend to be more for show than for any real intent as far as I can see. If I recall correctly, daggers are usually double edged (meaning I can't think of a single edged version of the top of head atm), where as knives can obviously be either.

New Zealand customs require a knife blade to be under 10cm (single edge as well), as for Aussie customs I've never experienced any problems bringing in anything with a similar blade length to NZ, but have had to do some fast talking if they're double edged. Mentioning the re-enactment or martial arts facet has helped alot in the past :p

Dagger Lengths tend to vary between 30-40cm in my experience, your mileage may vary of course. Main gauche's varying both under and over ... funny eh? lol

My short swords, that I've had for ever, are both 46.5cm long (more like over length daggers really rofl), witt the majority I've seen in replica's and other forums tend towards 65-80cm range. Although I believe the gladius to be both a heavier and slightly longer versions of said weapon. Not knowing a great deal on Roman stuff you'd be better off asking Rob or Victor.

(/rant) Hope that helped

[Mad Jim]

What about the likes of some that have a triangle blade/point, they be still a dagger, with the stabbing motion intended. But then take the Fairburn Sykes fighting knife, it has a double edge and characteristics of a dagger but yet its a fighting knife..
As some have already noted 30-40cm of blade [double edged] would usally be still classed as a dagger, I'd say anything longer would get into sword territory [Spatha?].....then on the other hand you have the 'Grosses Messer' or large knife which at times was almost as long as a longsword!

personally I would class mostly all double edged blades that are from wrist to elbow in length to be in the dagger catorgory, but then depending on the hilt/cross guard size maybe heading into short swords, and mostly all blades with a back edge I would class as a 'knife' regardless of size, but then that would change with the hilt/cross guard as well...ie: Simitar, has a back edge, but tis not a knife, disregarding the loverly curve...

does my dribble help? maybe, ..but now my keyboard is wet....

[Robbo]

You referring to the smaller triangular blades used primarily by spec. ops etc? If so then they'd still come under the knives category. On that note they also have a seriously nasty knife with twin blades set about 1-1.5mm apart. Makes the devil's work stitching anything/one cut with them back together. Keep in mind these blades are usually smaller, punch knife style. If I'm off track on what you're referring to tho ... ummmm , oops?

[Mad Jim]

Nope not special forces, but actuall triangler blades made during the medieval times, from the knife I saw prob near the 15th century, also it was a bollock dagger [repilica of what I saw] found somewhere in merry old England, I'll put up a link if I find the page again...

[Nathan]

[Bogue]

Poniard