a discussion about all tournament injuries - please read

[Chantelle]

Please do not skim read this

this is an email to consolidate discussions from the last twenty years and try to reach some conclusions

It is purely to further and generate discussion on safety issues that have been around since we started 25 years ago, please do not take any of this out of context, it all needs to be discussed, and conclusions worked towards.

In the last five years of my twelve in this community I have perceived an increase of moderate to serious injuries but as we have no governing body to record these injuries and ACC to cover recovery and doctors visits, there is no way to quantify this, making it easier to forget about the injuries or to not tally them up to see how many there have been and whether there are any reoccurring injury spots.

We are not the SCA as people have pointed out, and ego's and issues aside as someone very wise and respected from the metal community pointed out the SCA have had 45 years of concussions and that is how they have learnt - we have had 25, and instead of re-inventing the wheel - why not look at their basic safety standards and either adopt them, or work them into each tournaments rules - REGARDLESS OF WHO IS RUNNING IT.

At this point it would be too easy to blame certain people for how something is run, people for the way they fight, trainers for not covering basic safety and control, individuals for faulty kit.

ALL THOSE ARE ISSUES
but as we get lost in talking about them - nothing progresses.
we can't regulate training, kit and attitudes in the two islands - and do we really want to?

We can however regulate SAFETY STANDARDS with EQUIPMENT.

I have witnesses head injuries and other bodily injuries at tournaments at ALL our national meetings in the last 5 years that never used to happen.

We changed the rules of combat, but didn't fully upgrade and ENFORCE new safety requirements. More armor is being worn - but there are a few that thing that this means less control and hit harder.

IF we insist on thrusting non bendable metal swords and tips to faces, throats and arteries with UNREGULATED force, there needs to be mesh at the front. In those same fights - if we insist on wrapping shots around heads, or getting into the situations where people - experienced and less experienced, duck or turn their backs for whatever reasons - and get struck, then we need Back of head protection. Fencing masks as an example do not provide this on their own.

BASIC SAFETY standards such as

- safely made gorgets ALWAYS to be worn
- metal on the BACK of the head
- mesh on the front of the head
- footwear that does not slip
- major arteries not exposed - armpit and groin and throat
- puncture proof clothing - (in case a sword breaks)

It is easy to say - as i have had said to me, that it is too expensive to upgrade kit, but is it too expensive to put mesh on helms? etc etc? but i put this to you...

how expensive is another eye?
another throat?
a head with more than three concussions - which in rugby means you never play again

We haven't reached it yet, but how will we all cope with a manslaughter charge?
I am not saying this to fear monger or stir - I am saying this to save my friends lives. I don't want to see a death or paralysis, and i don't even want to see a serious injury.

We play with swords, we are going to get hurt, but there are ways to regulate the way we play so they are cuts, and bruises - and the occasional broken bone (because i am not that naive - it will happen)

Lets not keep talking and blaming, lets act.
Lets make a discussion and reach some conclusions of basic safety standards that will protect our friends and family
we don't have to be the SCA, but we do have to upgrade our basic standards.

One last point.

the Culture will change if we change
if we are fighting in a tourney that has these rules - and just like we check our weapons, we start to check what people wear, and if that manages to go under the radar and your notice an opponent that hasn't got the required gear - you have the POWER to refuse to fight until they do, because it may be YOU who faces that manslaughter charge.

We have grown as a community
We have all got different egos, and attitudes and gripes, but if we have a basic safety END POINT, it takes the pressure off not being able to regulate other issues previously mentioned.
we have the power to not take part in what is deemed an unsafe event, and we have the power to take a step back from what we love and change it before we lose it all completely.

accidents will happen - lets make it so the change doesn't come from a fatal injury
lets make it so we don't have to make a decision after someone is dead or paralysed, and the police shut us down, lets set rules down now so our friends and families are safe and that does not happen

lets start a discussion about change, and come up with something that helps us all - not just fight and argue, become resigned and then say we cant do anything.

Thank you
Chantelle, Rebecca, Jeremy, Welly-Bex, Rachael Forrest (who has also posted this to the dragons list)

[David]

Yup I agree,

I was not at Harcourt Park and am, therefore, not commenting on any individual or event that occurred. However, I do not think it is constructive to launch a Witch Hunt.

I am well know to personally advocate the use of fully meshed closed helms and I feel uncomfortable sparring with anyone wearing an open type helmet. Personally it spoils my enjoyment and stifles the freedom of the combat because I am mindful of possible accidental injury. In fact I would go as far as to say that I don't enjoy sparring as much with opponents in open faced helms and would rather loose a bout safely than risk winning and injuring.

I also do not subscribe to the idea that heavily armoured automatically means heavier and uncontrolled blows as I believe that this is very much up to the individual sensibilities and calibration. As such, I think control and calibration of blows needs to be considered as important training as anything else and held in the same regard as adequate head and body protection.

If we do not seek to regulate ourselves as a community then regulation WILL be imposed upon us. I have seen this personally MANY times in several professional capacities and it is never pretty for all concerned. In cases like that nobody wins.

I love our sport and I love our fraternity and, although I have only been involved for a relatively short time, I have observed significant changes occurring. As a community we must respond and adapt to these changes in order to evolve and maintain safety.

Now, of course, full head blow combat is not for everyone and that is absolutely acceptable. However, I maintain that there is still a significant possibility of injury in opponents practicing non-head blow combat and, to my mind, it is absolutely insane not to seek the maximum amount of personal protection that is pertinent.

These issues are highly emotive and there are many facets to many arguments. What we have to be aware of is that any paradigm shift away from an entrenched position is PAINFUL and difficult to make. Many people have conscious or subconscious vested interests and agendas for many reasons. I feel that the only healthy way to respond to change is with dynamicity as stasis and dogmatic clinging to old beliefs and rules in light of new thinking is both dangerous and ultimately self-destructive.

I recognise that I do not have all the answers and I am not on any "high horse". I very rarely post anything significant here on GD but I feel that this is an important discussion that needs to be addressed.

Yours Aye
David

[Chantelle]

thank you David, wise words.

maybe once everyone has posted what they think - a meeting for all those that wish to help to decide things etc could be arranged to reach some conclusions?

ANY constructive thoughts and opionions on the subject and
ANY suggestions of how to reach conclusions would be appreciated at this time from everyone xx

thanks
Chantelle

[conal]

Chantelle, Dave,

I agree.

Up till now we have used a system of transparent peer review based on honest and robust discussion.

It's not a system , but aside from the club accident registers it's all we have.

(And the club accident registers tend to have less ink in them than they should, judging from the Raven's one.)

[Chantelle]

this is wonderful,

and if you see at the end of the original document rebecca, jeremy, welly bex and rachael are all in agreement too

xx

[Robbo]

[Chantelle]

xx

excellent point robbo training does need to be looked at amongst other things - the reason why i suggested we focus on safety equiptment standards was because i am aware of the training and other issues that we can't regulate at the moment - especially in the heat of battle.

As you said in your other post adrenalin meant he didn't hear the stop/hold

....so if we could maybe combine the two - have a set of safety equiptment standards that protect (like the ones that were suggested that you quoted and the other people named at the bottom of the document supported) and have SOME way of helping each other train....?

i also look forward to more discussion - but as i have said - to work towwards an outcome....a resolution not just rehash what we have talked about and not resolved - especially since head blow was introduced ...

thanks

[Fungus]

As to the injurys that have happened in the last few years are on the rise and we are all keen on keeping the comunity safe having a discussion is a good idea but it will be like hearding cats and will be a lot of work and even then I cant see every club coming to the table

[Chantelle]

totally. as said before we all have our different ideas and personalities and ways of training....

which is why the suggestion in the original document about the tournaments having those safety standards on equiptment might be a solution - so we don't have to decide on much and the actual tourney rules are for the organiser of that specific one to decide upon

i know jeremy and rebecca are now looking at ways to fully protect him in the future - it would be good to hear from the actual fighters what head and joint protection they think they need....

at the end of the day - hell, everyone managed to form NAAMA and i am sure that was a bit like hearding cats - but it was done xxx

a really valid point tho fungus which is what we need xx

[Wellybex]

[Robbo]

May I add, another focus point NEEDS to be on the marshals. I'm as guilty as any of the others here. Most of wandered into Marshalling due to either need, an injury, or just wanting to keep an eye on our friends.

All across NZ our marshals differ. The way points are addressed in tourneys and the field vary. We NEED this to change. It confuses fighters, allowing yet more room for danger.

*bows* apologies if this appears to be side tracking your original thread Chantelle. I do think we need to look at more than protective gear however, we need to incorporate your ideas, training regulation (perhaps warm up safety bouts, closely monitored, before an event) and marshal consolidation (aka: let's test our marshal's so they know what's required of them) as well.

[King of Swords]

Hi all, Seamus here, thought I'd better jump on and participate seeing as I'm at fault. Firstly I'd like to give a big ups to Callum and the team from the Boar who put on an amazing event, and I'm gutted that my idiocy put a bit of a damper on it.
I wasn't sure what was meant by " right of reply ", and rather than clarify with Colin, I just jumped in. As a result, after landing a kill, I was resetting without waiting for Colins' call. The fight aint over till the marshall says so, and even though I landed what I reckon was one of my better strikes, crotch to collar, Mike was quite right to swing back.
I personally don't like the fencing masks, because thats what they are, masks, and for the dark age headblow bouts we engage in, I think its' pretty obvious that they just aren't up to the job. They are designed to turn foils, not swords, and the open backs have led to most of the injuries in the tourneys I've participated in.
Brother Hannay informs me that clip on additions are available for the masks, and I would suggest that If you intend to use them in our style of combat, a small investment in your safety is advisable.
Chantelley is concerned for our safety, so please listen to what she is saying. I am for my part, after many many conversations, adopting an across the board minimum level of safety gear for the Irish, even , and I hesitate to mention this, plastic stuff that can be worn under our authentic kit.
Much love to all, please don't blame Colin for what was clearly my mistake, and I hope that we can all get this drama sorted so as I can continue swinging lumps of steel at my friends. Kill you all later.


ABU NA FIANNA

[David]

Robbo makes a very good point.

What I am seeing here is a broad agreement that certain National standards for training, equipment, marshalling and rulesets are required as well as some mechanism to quality assure them!

That is quite a daunting yet exhilarating prospect!

Yours Aye
D

[Robbo]

May I add a thought? A majority of people see a need for an increase in regulation. On that basis, can I suggest we break this thread into THREE subjects:

1/ Protective equipment and protocols
2/ Training regulations
3/ Marshalling standards

Naturally, at any event, these will come back and flow together, but allow me to demonstrate 2 examples:

1/ Current day.

Fighter walks onto field, wearing a min spec lid, leather gloves and a thick tunic, they've maybe been given full training with their weapon (I say maybe, because standards vary and most events don't require someone else to sign off every single combo that fighter may use, and their TRAINER will take responsibility for them and any injuries), where they face others of similar ilk moderated by 1-3 people carrying white sticks who may or may not know what they're supposed to be doing and may not even be watching ffs!

2/ Bright shiny day in the future.

Fighter walks onto field, wearing min spec as agreed upon by all event organizers and majority of club captains nation wide (hey man, if I dream, I dream big ok!). They are protected in full head gear (mesh covered eyes) gorget, and at least arterial protection. They're trainer has signed off every weapon this person knows, with full knowledge that if any injury should occur from said fighter, they're going to hung out to dry. BEFORE they take the field, they will fight 2-3 practice bouts under the loving eyes of other trainers/captains and marshals. Deemed fit to fight, they move on to creating carnage in their own very special way all the while being observed (and not interfered with unless deemed a safety matter) by marshals who have trained each other to watch for dangerous, aggressive attitudes and/or lack of defensive skills (after all, on the field, we shouldn't be interferring for any other reason). Ahhhh, bliss.

k, end rant, next?

[hopies]

While I agree with the min standards set forth....

Getting people to actually wear the stuff is a thing of legend.

There are many people out there with full suits but they say it slows them down, or its hot, or uncomfortable.

Justin and I are happy to make cheap backs for fencing masks. If someone comes to the workshop they can make thier own for around $20- 30 bucks.

But I think the time of the fencing mask is nearing an end - ive never felt too safe in one as the bib always rides up - ive taken a couple of throat shots in my short time from the mask slipping.

There are some very competant designs ive seen on the field which are full face steel surrounding the back with chain on the base to protect the throat - David your helm is one of the better ones - want to post a piccie for us.

Perhaps a run of those types of helm at an affordable price for all? Or even if the host of the tournament has lend a helms for those who cant afford them.

Emphasis on inforcing the regulations both personally and from the marshalls though. It is a dangerous sport that we do, and the different styles are many and some not compatibal with others.

I think medieval in NZ would do well with a governing body like SCA has but I think we are still too fragmented to agree to it just yet. Perhaps work towards that and a few other issues will fall into place.

just my 10 cents

Sophie