a discussion about all tournament injuries - please read

[Angel]

This is where I think there should be more onus on the combatants to acknowledge good blows, and not have a system reliant on the marshals. The marshals are only looking with their eyes, but the combatants are ones feeling the impacts.

The combatants are the ones throwing the blows, they have the control, and if they don't then that isn't the marshals' fault, nor the trainer's fault, but the combatant's fault.

The combatant has the responsibility that they have been trained enough to be on the field, that their equipment is safe and functional and meets the appropriate standards, and that they aren't going to hurt their opponent.

The marshals should only be there to spot the things that the combatants missed - armour failures, getting too close to the audience, and occasionally clarify what they saw of a bout if there's a dispute between the combatants over the outcome.

You should have separate people keeping score, if that's one of the tournament rules.

[Manky]

Oh gee, not sure what to say here as well every one has made such valid points and to add my 2 cents will essentially be repeating those. Bear with me

I agree with Chantelle and with Robbo specifically, in that we do need some sort of resolution, a direction towards safer combat and also that the three examples Robbo has introduced with marshalling, training and equipment (hoping I got that right as it was mentioned some while back at the start) as a focus.

So to my 2 cents:
Not with standing my lack of tournament experience, I really felt let down by the lack of experience and consistancy with the marshalling, in my view it did lead to frustration (as Silver mentions) and poor descisions from fighters who were either being hit or landing hits that were not counted.

Yes to a degree the fighters should show a level of honor in thier fights, acknowledge those good hits, but as someone else mentioned the fighters focus should be on their fight, its the marshalls job to call the blows, and well honestly there will always be the fighter who plays the tournament game and never acknowledges a hit unless the marshalls do likewise, to do otherwise could lead to a loss... right...

Essentially my point is the Marshalls for tournaments should be experienced and possibly trained a little to allow the tournaments/fighters the chance to focus on their 'game' I think you will find those who acknowledge the hits will not be at a disadvantage and those who don't call them will not gain any either. and there can be no argument either way. Happy times... this should lead to cleaner fights with less frustration and less injuries. (opinion only)

Anyway I'm not going to repeat all the good points mentioned earlier and realise I should have posted this in the Marshalling thread Robbo was setting up and so I say good bye

Manky

[Ben]

Good to see the discussion is progressing in a positive way.

Just one point that has been mentioned that I have a strong opinion on:

It is NOT the marshals job to call the hits - it is always up to every fighter to call their own hits. To do otherwise undermines the integrity of the entire system. The marshals can't be expected to see everything and even if the could their primary focus must always be safety. As a tournament organizer you could choose to assign judges to call hits, but there should always be at least one marshal focused completely on safety without the distraction of having to call every hit. That said, if someone is consistently failing to call their hits then the marshal does have to bring them to task for it otherwise their opponent will get frustrated and that can be dangerous.

Any fighter that wins a tournament by not calling their hits has completely FAILED - it's akin to winning a bike race because your bike has a motor. The only appropriate action for someone competing in that manner is 2 warnings followed by instant disqualification if they don't clean up their act.

May seam a bit harsh to some, but it's a totally unacceptable behavior that can easily ruin the credibility of an event or, in the case of a public event where the audience catches on, our entire sport.

Just my opinion, but a strong one... Looks like we need to get the role of the marshal clearly nailed down as part of this process.

[Ben]

Sorry, in case there's any confusion - I'm talking about blatantly ignoring hits until the marshal has to call you on it, not questionable hits. Its perfectly ok (and healthy) if there's some debate on weather a marginal hit was valid and the marshal (in the absence of separate judges) has final say.

[Manky]

Ok a bit of clarification in regards to what I was referring to with the marshal, my bad, but I actually meant the flag marshalls, which were specifially used at taupo, it was their job to call the hits and many didn't seem to have the knack. And what I guess Ben is rightly refering to is the marshall who is of course making sure the fight runs fairly and safely. Its definately not his job to call hits. I acknowledge I was unintentionally ambiguous on that, being that flag marshalls are not in every tournament, and that being the case it is definately the fighters job to be fair and honest, call the hits on yourself and honourable debate those which you felt shouldn't be acknowledged.

Sorry Ben if you missunderstood what I was talking about and otherwise I do agree

[Ben]

You guess correctly

No worries, it's all part of the online debating game...

[Robbo]

I accept full and total responsibility for my point judges at Taupo. I raised my well in advance of the event for helpers with experience, on the day you take the best of what you can get (and hey guys, I REALLY appreciated those of you who DID step up).

True, some were not as experienced as others, bizarrely the experienced folk I needed didn't want a bar of it. For some odd reason some people found fault with alot of the work my VOLUNTEERS did and gave them quite a bit of grief. We'll put aside the rude comments they received (and I'm made of sterner stuff so all good there), but fighters tended to forget that the rule was clean blow without being struck in return ... hence so many irish calls in my arenas.

From Taupo, with Nic's blessing, I've been trying to train decent marshal's, point scorers et al. Yes it's our job to remind people they got hit, but our main job is safety.

As regards point scoring or who got hit. Remember that respect for your brother/sister combatant I mentioned earlier? I did us all a disservice there, I forgot too remind us of self respect. I've been known to not acknowledge a hit once in a while, usually something I considered unworthy, yet each and every damned time I've gone over and apologized. I don't know about any of you, but I can't look at myself in the mirror, I can't look at my kids and I can't stand the looks on my friends faces afterwards when it happens. I dunno, watchamacallit, honor or something. Mine and yours. You hit me you deserve the respect and honor of having it acknowledged.

End rant.

Oh yeah. Be nice to my *cough* marshals. FFS guys, each and every one of us is/was a combatant. We want to be out there fighting, we want the adrenalin, the rush, the glory, the honor, the stories, the bruises. For now though, as Dave Smith once told me, we've put all that aside to keep you, our friends, safe. When you choose to be rude or disrespect a marshal, you disrespect another fighter, a brother in arms. Where's the honor in that?

Honor is that ineffable thing that only you can give to yourself. Only you can take. It's your first and last line of defense in what we do and in life. If you don't have any, I don't want to know you ... and I sure as hell don't want you on the field.

K, now the rant has finished. Sorry. My poor judges got shown very little respect under very trying circumstances. Don't believe me? Try doing it your self some day.

[Chantelle]

Right guys - i got called into teach today - so this has taken a little longer than i hoped, but all posts on this thread are picked apart - will be going through the other thread that conal started for any pearls of wisdom and then the facebook comments....

so by the end of tonight we will have five threads

robbo's marshalling thread
safety protocols
governing body
safety equipment
training

within these threads the first post will be broken into the issues that people have put forth and the solutions people have put forth - nothing has been discriminated against, if it was in the post - it is in the thread (but please be gentle as this has been a big job and if i have missed something - point it out nicely - it won't have been on purpose)

with a mind to bring all these back into discussion in whatever way is decided upon - ie to bring them to an actual table to then actually decide upon and make the rulings with EVERYONES imput and help

at this time i would like to thank everyone for their calm, rational and respectful comments and help in this - as many people have said - the end goal is to make sure we are all safe in the sport we love

take care and i look forward to continuing this is the spirit it was started

xx chantelle

[ChronicD]

suggestion to close thread with a final set of links to the new ones?

[Chantelle]

right - all the threads are consolidated and posted

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE start or keep discussing these in your groups etc

and please keep directing people to the threads to give their opinion because at the end of the day talk is great - but ACTION is what is going to help the community

great idea to close the thread.....was going to suggest it - but how?

thanks to everyone again
Chantelle

[Frolic]

[Freebooter]

[Chantelle]

Thanks Nic

i agree with Patch's original post too....

and it is all awesome actually - to date we have had nothing but comments of amazment and pride that all the threads associated from the first about tournament safety have been logical, respectful and helpful

many people have emailed and facebooked etc - saying they would bring it up at club meetings and with people they know don't or won't go on GD

i am so proud of everyone so far for being awesome about this whole topic - and the ONE THING coming through is that people

A) want change and
B)care enough about each other to create change

meeting will be necessary for this - as stated from the beginning, we need CONCLUSIONS - not to just keep discussing all of this

discussion, consolidation, and then decisions need to be made in all areas

we value all imput equally but have to eventually decide.

hopefully we will come to the table with the above words in mind

thanks
Chantelle