Unified Training? - thread of other discussion about safety

[Chantelle]

Please do not skim read any of this

The below is broken into the ISSUES raised and the SOLUTIONS people have suggested

The SOLUTIONS are NOT the agreed upon solutions – they are simply the solutions that have been suggested so far

The below are YOUR WORDS people – taken from your posts, if i have missed anything it was not intentional – please let us know

very wise words....
we need clear communication from OLD to NEW people and then back again in all we do – so tell everyone you know about these threads and even if they don't think GD is a good forum for this / have access – help them to view it, or get them on here to follow and discuss from the beginning of the threads

When we finally come together to discuss these issues and to come to some conclusions please remember

come to the table
swallow your pride
listen respectfully
our similarities should engulf our differences
we are all there for each others sake and the love of our community and sport

Suggested steps for action now

discuss some more
consolidate
arrange a meeting place to place down some rules etc???? thoughts on this?


TRAINING

ISSUES

people not counting their blows

lack of honor

fighting from some parties has become too hard and brutal

in unregulated matches – the winner will always go to person with least control

in a public arena – combatants torn between fighting and showing off

new fighting environments are hard on people

unregulated force is an issue

denting face protection with full thrusts to eyes – NOT COOL

things like adrenaline mean not hearing Stop / hold commands
unregulated force and inexperienced fighters DON'T always go hand in hand

head blow is NOT the issue – it is untrained people trying to do it with a little bit of understanding

people around the country are picking up swords and thinking i will give this a go and therefore turn up to tournaments etc and have no one to vouch for them but their mates saying – yeah, he is o.k., i have seen him fight

accidents happen – we play with swords after all

How is discipline being taught by instructors

How actively are we teaching our combatants to "pull the shot"

How much focused target, pell work and safe take downs are we doing at training?





SOLUTIONS
training and expertise should be mainstays of any training sessions

fighters need hydration

fighters need a place in the shade

need general fitness - to focus control, concentration and reaction times

training in both distances and ways of delivering good clean hits that can be seen by all - will solve full strength hits out of frustration

everyones responsibility to be trained enough.....

to be – on the field
that their equipment is safe and functional
meets appropriate standards

needs to be a meeting where – a basic set of standards are agreed upon by a representative of the club which then brings the information back to distribute

trainers to sign off on weapons for club members – to show they are safe to fight with them

trainers are at fault as well as the fighter if they are on the field with weapons NOT signed off

need to train in different weapons and states of armour to fully encompass everyones ideas

people should not go into mass melee above the scope of their own gear / skill level

play with a rubber sword to know the damage that even that can do if uncontrolled

competitors should treat all weapons as sharp

sensible attitude is everything so,
take hits
control yours

understand how to not endanger yourself – if your attempt to protect yourself pushes someones blade to your head and you don't realize – you need more training

know when to stop when told

know other disciplines stop commands to not be caught off guard

'irish' is the recognized call for people 'killing' each other at the same time

learn to fight in a tournament – i.e. – don't turn back until the hit is acknowledged

do not be in the ring, if you don't want to be hit

it needs to come from club level to train members safely

COMMOM SENSE IS NOT COMMON

self respect is needed

break falls should be practiced and mastered in training

[Robbo]

Thought:

Per event, each club captain must come to the marshals table (where weapon and armor checks occur today already) and present a sheet with each club member and their qualified weapons. Not hard, most clubs already know who is, and isn't, qualified with what combo's.

Before taking the field, each combatant just walks past a marshal and presents it. Tada. Safe, qualified fighter, now under the auspice of trainer and marshal ... anything happens, we work in reverse. Start with the combatants involved, then the marshals, finally come back to the trainer.

Reasonable?

[David]

Robbo - I like it.
At AS&S we are instigating member ID cards. These are cheep laminated cards that will ID the holder to the Police if they are stopped on the way to training with a bag full of swords!
It could also be a method of officially recording completion of gradings.
Restrictions could also be noted.

Not a huge amount of work for an organised Club Secretary.
D

[conal]

The Black Library has a heap of fighter regos from previous NAAMA's.

(Its amazing what you find in the bins at the end of camps.)

Not many of the forms have been filled out seriously

The two best NAAMA's for Fighters Regos were Auckland and the Second Raven's one at Rangi Woods (which has heaps of detail but no date...)

Clontarf has a fighter rego wherein each team must enter an approved list.

Clontarf also uses the 2007 NAAMA provisional rule set that Angel and Co. (The White Council) put together.

The Captains then agree on components of the respective fights, head blow, leg shot ... whatever.

If there is no agreement then the battle defaults to NAAMA 2007.

Current baseline is each club takes responsibility for its folk and is peer reviewed, each in turn, by inter-club meets.

[ChronicD]

Thanks Conal, i didnt know any of that... which lead me to have to point out that though it sounds like a functioning system it is one that most of the community are not privy to.

My request/suggestion is not that we change the mechanics of what we do but how we communicate with the community at large. Large expansive bulletins clearly indicating the road for the mob to the games.

And my only other point is that NAAMA no longer caters for the community at large - just a substantial part of it. These other styles/movements should not be asked to do it the NAAMA way or hit the High way, with a dialog between these groups and the older NAAMA club captains there could be a far better understanding of what they each do and thereby also scrutinies what is compatible and not.

eg it might be said that it is not safe to take one of the taranaki members in later period plate and with there little hammers and put that person opposite one of the roman folk in leather. I dont know this rather i am just speculating.

Better communication channels will also allow for a stronger support structure for emerging clubs who need help and guidance on how to set up there training programs

thats me for the night folks

Dan

[Fungus]

The naki guys only go hard on each other as its how they train and tone it down for every one else it makes for good displays and Paul is good at panel beating

[ChronicD]

[ChronicD]

Oh sorry - i needed to summarize that last post to show its relevance to the thread topic;

Basically im saying that unified training standards are not what we need - but rather a clear set of regulations for different styles of fighting - it is then up to clubs and participants to work out how they fit into these regs.

So rather then unified training a national agreed upon structure of styles that would then allow for each fighter to fight within a category of safety he is trained in and wishes to participate in as well as fighting within a period of his choosing.

I know everyone will be thinking that that would reduce the number of people participating. It wont as anyone can to more then one period or style.

obviously the lighter stuff will field more but then the heavy weighters can always participate. though they may be restricted in weapon choice depending on what they normally train to do. eg someone that trains to use spears/pole wepaons to thrust to the face would not be allowed to field with this in the light non head blow fighting.

over and out

[Robbo]

Unified Training:

* At home = home standards, do it ast thou wilt, just try to keep in mind what other clubs standards are and what they're doing.

* ANY event = an opportunity to train in their style, they can try out yours, the event organizer can state how they want the ball to roll. Before any large scale combat, throw in 30-60 minutes of warm up, unified, training.

Work on this scale should have us moving in the direction I see/hear people talking about wanting yes?

[ChronicD]

----please note i have edited this post and it may be different (longer) then the one you received in your email, if you received it as an email ----

reply to Robbo,

whilst i agree that what clubs do "at home" is up to them. we need a better structure for events. Letting the organizer make the decisions solely based upon his/her personal preference (perhaps with agreement from close friends/trusted fellows) does not represent the community and will lead to confusion.

We need clearer categories of fighting.

Based upon Harcourt as it is freshest in my memory, i would put forward Harcourt required two categories.

1. Display fighting
2. Tournament fighting

To participate in these events there should be a qualifying criteria, ideally a national agreed upon display fighting grade/certificate and for the tournament proof of familiarization and competence with a focus on safety for the "style/period" the tournament is. in this case later period long sword and sword and buckler.

You can say that this will stop people that would otherwise participate in the these categories - these would either be new members of a club or old members who feel they are already proficient and need not go through a proper grading or training for it.

For new participants they would have to just be understanding that this is the way events are run and that they should participate in a grading to be a part of the fighting at the event. For the oldies like myself, it would be incredibly arrogant to not also do a grading in display fighting as it would not only be about how to fight safely but also about communication between us all. It is an opportunity to learn how to make things look cooler and be safer.

If you were at Harcourt think back to the rough riders - they were doing some thrilling stuff that was obviously dangerous but they did so safely as that is what they train to do.

We could easily standardize display fighting - i mean if a participant receives money from an event organizer to do the simple job of entertaining the crowd means that that is solely what it is about.

It can be fun in its own way, i remember clearly fighting you Robbo at Harcourt and seeing you twitch you two blades in as if to block a head strike. Noting this i made a big show of coming in to get you which you obviously blocked and then gutted me like a fish - it looked great! It was fun and really Cool and anyone that end of the field would look on and think aweome! I had similar experiences with Conal and Jeremy at Manukau Market (dont know how to spell it) using a spear and doing the classic under the arm push it through there body and to the ground - best of all we would hit the ground and feel good because we had entertained the crowd and done so safely.

Sorry i dont like talking about myself like that, but the account of these events clearly shows what i am talking about.

In the end a governing body can represent the community, police certain activities such as tourneys and display fighting and quickly communicate ideas throughout the community.

I hope i am being clear and concise and non aggressive - i have been careful to try not to use the word "but" in all my posts as well as avoid expressions like "in my opinion" or "i think/feel". I thereby hope for people to read my thoughts and ideas and not judge them based on the language i use but rather critique them and try to help me finalize them into an action what ever that may be. For that is my goal, an Action or series of for the betterment of all.

sorry the post ended up a bit long

again i would like to confer my support of Robbos idea to have a warm up period - ideally without a crowd and to be doing something in person. I am suggesting that upon this we also create a organization to better communication and help organizers run events safely.

all the best
dan

[Robbo]

[Fungus]

The people running events have alot of hard work to do and its not just turning up in kit as it is for the rest of us.
So if there is a way to support them as a comunity Im all for it and offers of help are normaly well received.
So the organisers of an event can chose what rule set to go by and as there are a few different rule sets out there they have to run things the best they can and to what type of combat that most of the fighters they have use.
With Harcourt i did only the display fighting in main arena and I enjoyed it and I didnt do any tourny fighting or see any ether but the fact two friends of our comunity got hurt is a concern.
Im not a great fan of the one on one tournys and ill not enter in one but that is my own choice as Im probably not up to the mark anymore and I dont care but some people take it way too seriuosly and can lead to people getting hurt.
But how to fix it I dont know

[ChronicD]

Reply Fungus:

[Patch]

Hi Dan, these are some well thought out posts and I appreciate the effort you have put into them. There are a couple of things that you may want to consider with the idea of having an overriding policing and ruling body to set structure to events.

1. No club in the universe is ever going to appreciate a bureau telling them how to run their own event. Having outside authorities forcing a club to fight in ways that it considers dangerous or tedious is a recipe for disaster. I anticipate that what would happen in that circumstance is exactly what has happened already; those that disagree will split off and form their own group and do things the way that they want to.
2. If you are going to compel the organiser of an encampment or display to fight under your rules you cannot then say that injuries occurred on the field because of your enforced rules are their responsibility. It will be your responsibility.

Whatever measures are created have to be what people want or we’ll simply refuse.

A note about period. The categories of light and heavy are not era dependent. Heavy armoured warriors have been around from the bronze age (Probably earlier but alas no one in NZ does caveman re-enactment).
Also I like to fight with the Romans, I don’t think it is sensible to demand that either they or I change in order to accommodate the others period.

Having said that I wholehearted agree that warm ups for displays are super important and make the whole event run like a smooth fun spectacular and on time thing.
I like the idea of specialist training for displays – I don’t know that it should be necessarily certified, that is worth discussing pro’s and cons.
-Patch

[Patch]

Just a thought...
The more people fight together the better we will be at fighting together.
The more we train together the better we will be at fighting, period.
The more easy fun get togethers, encampments, and battle days we have the more fun we will have.
The more we turn up to events and learn from each other the less of these discussions we will need.

It is 4:37am and my head is in a happy spinny place, not sure if I have made sense these last few posts.
Cheers guys,
-Patch.