Unified Training? - thread of other discussion about safety

[Seamus]

Yeh hey team, been outta da loop for a bit and I'm still catching up with all da posts re: dis safety malarkey, but I'm stoked to see how seriously people are taking it, and what I've read so far has proven that we all can act like adults when we need to.
There is an obvious need for us to all get together and agree on a set of combat rules we use for interclub/group gigs. I strongly agree that clubs need to be able to train as they and their members see fit, but for the likes of NAAMA, which I reckon should be as inclusive as possible, we have to try and minimise potential risk to participants.
The set of rules we voted in many moons ago still exist, I'm not sure how familiar everyone is with them, but at the time, they were adequate for what we were doing.Its become apparent that some form of clarification and/or amendment is needed, and at the risk of stirring up a hornets nest, I have a humble proposal to put before you all my good friends.
I will schedule in Two Hours of time on the last morning of NAAMA.
All club captains and trainers of combatants will have a voice, as will any experienced independant fighter who wish to participate.
I'm thinking the agenda will be something like this:

Welcome
Agenda read
Definitions explained
Old NAAMA rules presented
Call for Amendnents
Vote on agreed amendments
Other bizniz
Vote on matters arising
CUL8a

I'd like to get this done as painlessly as possible, and I apologise beforehand if I tread on anybodys toes, but there honestly seems to be a desire to adress the issue out there in the community, and cos we are hosting this year it kinda falls on us to see that it happens.
In saying that, I really don't want our gig poisoned by a lot of rampant posturing and measuring of swords, yes that was a euphamism. I use it to highlight the fact that I'm fully aware of the potential for peoples egos to get a bruising from this kind of process, but when it comes down to it majority must rule. We are a community so we should act like one.

The rules:
Start with a joke * mandatory *
One person speaks at a time.
Have something constructive to say
No Monologues ( See adenda # 1 Bruvva Ruffy )
Keep your heckling to a minimum ( See adenda #1 Bruvva Ruffy )
Management retains the right to frown at miscreants
Voting is by voice, Aye or Nay
As official NAAMA Master of Ceremonies, The Rhuss will officiate.
A scribe will attempt to keep record
Everybody is welcome to attend
Only those with a voice speak ( See adenda # 1 Bruvva Ruffy )


We have plenty of time to firm up the kinds of things we want to talk about and the above is meant as a kinda starting point. Im completely open to any and all suggestions as to how you'd all like to tackle it, but Its my humble opinion that the allthing type format is the fairest way to air the collective will of the bunch of ego-maniacal blood crazed murderous filth I choose to call my friends.


Adenda #1 Bruvva Ruffy to administer the 'stop talking' stick in the time honoured tradition.

This is sent with a hint of trepidation, but I never was very smart, and it aint like this is the first time I've ever shot my mouth off. Anyway Luv to all, probably kill you all later.

I've bought ye to the revel, now dance if ye can : A' Wallace.

[Fungus]

The NAAMA regs should be amended at NAAMA and I take my hat off to you and your team Seamus for putting your hands up to do it and a smart move to do it on the last day

[Seamus]

Thanks Fungal, hope to see you there as it's input from the likes of yourself that we need. Luvs to the fambly.

[Fungus]

Thanks man if i can make it to NAAMA I will but I can only say maybe for now

[Daniel Duxfield]

Having read this whole thread it gives one much to think on.
Mad Jim and I recently had a discussion on what our fledgling club was at it's core, NAAMA or WMA, living history or re-enactment.
Well, we're WMA. We learn from the manuals and codexi of the periods and weapon types we use.

Though one of the things that I find interesting is that many things we are learning from the manuals, conflict with the NAAMA style/rule set, especially the bit on headblow strikes.
Which to me poses a problem for us, should we go into a tournament against NAAMA fighters, several of the 'moves/strikes' at least skirt the boundaries of the NAAMA rules set or would come in direct conflict with said rules.

At present Jim and I are training our students in the correct and controlled use of mainly (long)swords, while preparing them for tournament fights. Though our students have a long, long way to go before we'd both feel comfortable letting them loose on anyone else, aside from ourselves and each other.

But it has been our experience that common sense has been our guide. We began with drills. guards and strikes. Ensuring correct technique was enforced before we let them spar. But with all weapon training we have to have them spar from the beginning, to a) gain valuable fighting experience against an opponent and b) teach them the value of proper control of their weapon. I'm not the softy, softly type of instructor, but I will train them properly and safely.

We have enforced safety guidelines, such as gloves, helmets (when they can afford them, but our hobby ain't cheap) and mouth guards. As for armour, we haven't worried so much about it as we've focused on the weapon control aspect of the training first. Because if you can't control your weapon, then you shouldn't be fighting. Period!

What has this to do with this thread?
Well, I think it all comes down to the training we all receive. Having your club Captain vouch for you at Taupo, for instance is good form. Having some one from another club hold us to their standard is bad form.
I wouldn't expect to be refused to be allowed to fight because my phrygian nasal helm doesn't cover my whole face. That would piss me off. I'm not SCA, I'm WMA and my kit fits that standard. I take my lumps with honour and good grace (in fact I laugh when I get hit, sometimes I giggle like a school girl ha ha). But my helmet protects my face and I would expect my opponent to be an experienced enough fighter to control their weapon and not thrust their sword point into my eyeball. So I think forcing fighters to adhere to a particular safety standard is unrealistic.

My suggestion for a national tournament/competition would be to either have only NAAMA fight NAAMA, SCA only fights SCA, WMA only fights WMA. A bit like formula 1, 2 and 3 do with car racing.
But even better would be to have an open tournament where all 3 'codes/styles' can come together and fight each other with whatever weapon choices they prefer and armour sets they prefer. With liability waivers signed and sealed.

At my core, I enjoy the fight as much as I enjoy the training and learning to use the weapons. I would happily fight any of you, win, lose, or draw. Then laugh about it with you over beers afterwards.
But I would really love a national tournament where we can all come and test ourselves against each other. With no inter club, nor rule set BS to get in the way.

[Robbo]

Common sense is an amazing expression. So often used, so often misrepresented. Ask 10 people what they think is common sense and you're likely to get 10 different answers lol. Common sense says don't hit, or be hit by, other people with steel weapons! :p That aside, I've seen more injuries occur when everyone involved thought just common sense was enough to get by ... lack of preperation, burrs on weapons, crap armour, the list goes on. Nah, I'll pass on common sense (at least when it comes to people I don't train with semi-regularly), give me a nice set of common rgound rules and principles people can share and rely on any day. </usual rant>

On that note, how would you propose to run a tournament involving Naama, WMA, reenactors, Dark Ages, Middle Ages, etc to all be involved without some set of rules (or guidelines)? Immediate issues I see, without trying:
* Headblow (inc: facial thrusts, lateral strikes and crown blow)
* Period vs period vs various armour levels (or lack thereof)
* weapon/armour quality ... ever seen someone wearing a helm made out of the side of a washing machine? I have
* Who wins? Who's adjudicating? Based on what precepts? (refer to period vs period ... an estoc blow counted as good by some is considered nothing by people in full armour expecting more solid hits ... and the reverse, people in little armour get REALLY upset being hit hard unexpectedly)
* OSH?

Not meaning to give you grief dude, I love to fight and have taken my share of blows with good humour (or at least I like to think so! lol), I just think some things need a bit more forethought before being implemented.

[Seamus]

The main reason I have a bee in my bonnet over this whole issue is that I recently read the new anti-terrorism laws, which place us, as fringe dwellers, squarely in the sights of this rather draconian piece of legislation. If we can't agree on an acceptable framework, our sport could theoretically be banned. I doubt whether the powers that be give a toss if you are a dark age fighter or a codex inspired one, we are all nutters who fight, and unless we can all agree and get something semi official set up, the only scrapping we will be doing is on a computor. I live in hope. love to all.

[Daniel Duxfield]

Well, the advice I got if you don't want to be harassed by the authorities is to make friends with them. Local Police plus customs. Has anyone else gone to the Police and said this is who we are and this is what we do and this is where we'll be doing it?
We did from the start. Haven't had a problem. We even had a 'gig' a few months ago.

[Seamus]

The above post is quite correct, and should be S.O.P for any group. The local constabulary are fully aware of our particular little cell, as are customs due to the whole ' Death Star ' debacle. I should however point out that the local police were fully aware of what the Tuhoe were up to before the choppers and flak jackets were deployed on the East Coast, and their protests were completely ignored by whoever pushed the button on that one.
We train people to fight, and teach them how to produce arms and armour. We teach how to live off the land, butcher animals, and other 'survivalist' techniques. There are many students of tactics and military history in our movement, and more than one member with 'questionable' politics.
In this current era of rampant paranoia, we can quite easily be viewed as a 'threat to the State', and even though in reality we can't agree on the colour of shite, the muppets in charge view the above with trepidation.
I'm fully aware of how this sounds, and I apologise, but I love my sport and want to be swinging my sword through the halls of whatever retirement home my daughter puts me in. If to do that means sticking my neck out and trying for some kind of agreement with all of the groups involved, then so be it, consider it stuck out.
If I am incorrect in anything I have said please tell me, I invite correction, and really hope I myself am the one that is being paranoid
Abu na Fianna.

[Fungus]

Contacting your local arms officer is something every club captain should do as it shows we have nothing to hide.
Most of the time you will find as long as no firearm or black powder is involved they wont be overly concerned I have found over the years but by contacting the police before a gig it lets them know we are reinactors not meatheads which goes a long way to sorting problems before they happen.
As to all forms of reinactment fighting having one govening rule set i think would be a hard task to say the least as so many people have different ways of doing things and the likes of SCA and WMA already have their rules set and dont need us to to reinvent the wheel for them.
But if we can find common ground (not the lowest common denominator) its worth a shot.

[??Questions??]

Alrighty.
First: it is sad to see how few people have posted here in this thread, on a count of how many have something to say after a beer.

Second: the era or armour should not change the rule set, however some people should change armour due to the rules. for example i enjoy tourneys and so to fight at Taupo I had to wear a fencing mask. but for nick to fight at CSS when he came for a play he had to use a helm.

we should all know what event it is we spend hours driving to and should be able to figure out the rule before we get there, though the head marshal should hold a general combatants meeting to clarify.

i do agree with the idea of "ID" cards with the weapons you have train in on them. but we have to keep in mind that different clubs have different gradings so mabye a "universal" card layout should be designed and tested?
maybe a photo, captains signature and cheak boxes with the weapons trained in?

Control has always been an issue but its up to us to fix it.


??Questions??

[Chantelle]

so a meeting at naama it is then?

can i urge EVERY ONE that intends to come to that meeting to read all threads FULLT and have taken note of what they wish to bring to the discussion so it doesnt' turn into a mish mash of misunderstanding and going round in circles.

we need to get this sorted.

thanks
Chantelle

[ChronicD]

Just to follow on from Chantelle,

If like me for what ever reason may not be able to attend i suggest you find a buddy to take a letter for you and read it on your behalf.

Also if a group of people want to get together and hash something out to be read representing all of them that would be good to.

If you do intend to write something, avoid explanations as much as possible and try to keep things bullet pointed.

As we are all in this together we will know what is being said and discus it.

Ideally we shall then have responses to questions points raised.

Looking ahead i would also like to point out that there should be someone there taking minutes of the meeting - Shamus i assume you will have honor of organizing this.

Lastly i would suggest the meeting have a formal structure of three parts.

1. Where points of concern are raised and discussed as little as possible so that everyone present will hear everyone's points and start to see common patterns and concerns emerging.

2. Break for 30 min to mingle, refresh and hash out what you wish to discuss.

3. Discuss, Reduce and Record what is in agreement, what is still unresolved and what is not agreed.

...And remember the core of what we are talking about is Unclear - What i mean is that some of us may be thinking of guidelines, others absolute rule sets, unified training systems and gradings and whatever else i cant think of.

My point is this is to be constructive and nonconstructive comments should not be voiced and an appreciation that we are all coming to the table with different ideas and backgrounds.

All the best - i hope to see you there.

[ChronicD]

ahmm...

just reread shamus's earlier post and he pretty much covered what i was talking about, so please reread his entry above before coming to the event!

oh and uh sorry shamus i will go back to the back of the line and put my hand up when i want to speak... joke in hand.