An National Open Tournament. Who'd be interested?

[conal]

Plastic. Wear plastic cover it with cloth of appropriate type and cut.

The more I look at curbolli (sp?) the more I think it was the predominant armor through many of the periods we re-enact. The rats ate, it moulded, got made into shoes or was used to manufacture coracles for the migration of the ancient celts to New zealand... fantastic!

With plastic you could have some real fun amongst the heavies.

[Daniel Duxfield]

The spirit of this tourney is martial skill.
But I am all good with throwing it open to all comers, if you are prepared and have kit which will stand up to what you are facing which is combat, then why not enter. But you pay your money, you take your chances like everybody else.

As for newbies vs more experienced fighters? I think the "wheat will be separated from the chaff" after the first few rounds . . . .

Allfiredup, to answer your querries;
1 - Same weapon vs same weapons (types)? yes & no, but up to the combatants.
2 - time period vs time period? would be a good test of theory. remember the old argument, a medieval knight vs a samurai?
3- thrusts to the face? possibly allowed under HEMA rules. but is a part of the training manuscripts we learn from. full face covering protection would be a must have.
4 - thrusts to the body? totally.
5- weapon specs? blunted edges, rounded points & tips.
6 - armour vs non armour? I'd rather the participants were armored.
7 - or an Armour grading/ranking? could come from scores settled on the day?
8- grapples? it's in the manuscripts, so why not. Once opponent is on the ground, marshal(s) call "STOP", points go to the fighter not on the ground.
9 - point scoring vs one hit vs 1 minute winner/ I quit matches? I really like the idea of points and obvious killing blows.
10 - ring size? What size do you guys recommend?

I understand what Leah is saying about it being easier to to get non-medieval armour. Not that I'm complaining about people's prices, they seem fair enough to me. But if I can get riot police greaves for $45 as opposed to period greaves for $320 or more. I'm going to go with the cheaper ones if I'm entering a tourney where I don't need authentic kit.

I appreciate that some of you guys make your own gear and others make gear to sell, but it is hard if cash is an issue, or no one replies to your request for a quote on getting stuff made (as I have found several times with people offering their services on this forum).
Personally I don't have a workshop, I know a couple of engineers, mechanics and a tool maker, and they will do some stuff, but they are not armourers nor blacksmiths.

Cheers for your replies guys. I really like how it's coming along. [/u]

[Daniel Duxfield]

I found this while looking up HEMA tourney rules. Please read and comment.
Here is the link to the page; http://hemaalliance.com/discussion/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=233

The World Wide Championship Open Rules – Draft 1 (official)

Section 1 – The Bout

1.At the start of the bout, the referee will call the fighters into the ring and announce their names/colours to the scorer and judges (and audience if present).
2.The time keeper and scorer will each signal that they are ready to begin
3.The referee will check that all judges are ready
4.The referee will check that both fighters are ready
5.The referee will call “fight”.
6.A bout will consist of 10 exchanges or 2.5mins fighting, whichever happens first.
7.An exchange is a period of fighting that starts with the fighters out of measure and ends when the referee calls “exchange”. “Exchange” will be called when
(a)After a hit has been indicated by a judge and both fighters move apart out of measure after the hit party makes one more action, or a halt to the fight has occurred due to grappling or other actions
(b)A fighter leaves the ring
(c)Both fighters move apart out of measure after an exchange of actions, whether or not any hits were scored.
8.When “exchange” is called, both fighters must step back out of measure and pause before continuing the fight.
9.The referee will also announce how many exchanges have been fought. “Exchange – 1” etc.
10.When the 10th exchange is completed, the referee will announce that the fight is over.

11.The time keeper will call “time” when the 2.5mins are up if required. The referee will call “break” and declare the fight over.

12.The scorer will announce the final score to the fighters (and audience) and record it.

Section 2 – The Officials
There will be three Judges, a referee, a score keeper [who may also keep time] and a Head Judge or President who will preside over the bout. Their Jobs are as follows:
1.Judges, three in number, will follow the fight and indicate by the raising of either of two coloured flags,when they think a fighter has been hit. Fighter will be designated a colour at the start of the fight.
2.Referee, one in number, will organise the fighters, check other officials are ready, announce when exchanges have taken place and keep order in the fight generally.
3.Time keeper/Scorer, one or two in number will record the score and keep time.
4.President, one in number, will oversee the judging and will correct judgements that are obviously wrong. This ability to veto a judgement by a judge will only be sparingly used. Presidents will swap arenas regularly.

Section 3 – Scoring

1.Points can be scored as follows:
(a)By striking your opponent to any target, with a valid part of the weapon
i.For most swords this includes the point, the edge and the pommel* – detail to be added here on a weapon-by-weapon basis.
A.Bucklers can use the edge or the flat, though utmost caution should be used with any strike.
(b)By grappling your opponent to the ground, as long as you stay on your feet
i.Grapples that last longer than 5s will be stopped with no score
ii.Grapples must be safe.
iii.Grapples can be stopped by the grappler at any time they show superiority.
iv.Only immediate counter techniques will be taken into account.
(c)By forcing your opponent out of the ring, while remaining in the ring yourself
(d)By striking your opponent with your companion weapon, e.g. a buckler strike
(e)By showing a controlled strike with the empty hand &&&& [To be discussed]
2.When a judge sees any valid hit or point, they raise the flag of the person who made the hit.
(a)Flags should be held horizontally away from the body as soon as the point is seen and held out until the referee calls “exchange”. It is up to the scorer to interpret the flags and record the correct scores.
3.A fighter only needs one judge to see their hit to score the point
4.NOTE: it is up to the fighters to demonstrate “good” hits. Judges will decide if a hit is good enough to score and will ignore light taps, flat hits etc. Good hits will be demonstrated for the participants at the start of the tournament.
(a)Good hits are as follows:
i.Cuts which contact with the edge in the weak half of the blade, and have moved a reasonable distance from the last resting place.
ii.Draw cuts that cut with at least half the blade, forwards or backwards.
iii.Thrusts which have not reached the end of their extension.
iv.Weapon pins and grips that the opponent cannot release before the onset of the second attack of the one making the pin/grip. Notice that pins and grips do not show Superiority.
v.Pommel Strikes that contact face or hands. Notice that Pommel strikes do not show Superiority.

Double hits
5.Strikes that land at almost exactly the same time (“nearly simultaneous” - less than 1s between hits) count 0 for both fighters.
(a)Judges should raise a flag for both fighters – the scorer will record this as a double hit.

Counter hits
6.If you are struck by your opponent, then you have one “action” to make a counter hit and nullify their point.
(a)An action may include one blade action, a step or both.
7.If you are struck while your opponent is pinning your weapon, then you do not get your action once they release your blade
8.Counter hits must be made to the head or the torso
(a)Exception: if you are struck in the LEG or the NON WEAPON HAND, then the counter strike may be made to the head, torso or weapon arm
9.If you are struck with the blade, counter hits may only be made with the blade, not the pommel etc.
10.Judges should raise the flag of any fighter who scores a counter hit – both flags showing indicates the counter hit to the scorer.
11.Judges MUST check that the counter hit is valid before raising their flag.
12.Counter hits are scored like double hits, 0 – 0.

13.Superiority: If the first hit in a double or counter hit is not made with the blade (i.e. a pommel strike, grapple, buckler strike etc.) and the return hit is made with the blade, then this is counted as a point for the blade (0 – 1), not as a double (0 – 0).
14.Two Point hits: If you can strike you opponent twice within two actions, i.e. before they complete their failed counter strike, you will be awarded two points. You will be awarded no points if they are successful with their counter strike
15.Judges will indicate the first point by holding the flag out horizontally and indicate the second point by raising the flag vertically over their head.
16.The scorer will award the points dependant on all the flags raised.
Only one colour seen = 1pt to that fighter
Only one colour seen, including vertical flag = 2pts to that fighter
Two colours seen = double (no points scored, double recorded)
Time Out:
17.If neither fighter engages for a significant amount of time, the referee will begin an audible 10s countdown. If no exchange has started by the end of this countdown, the referee may award a point to the fighter who was attempting to engage, or call “exchange, no score”.
Final Score:
18.The winner is the fighter who scores the most points in the bout
(a)Double hits will be recorded for the purposes of tie breaks and to fill places in repêchage style tournaments – the fighters with the fewest double kills will be rewarded.
The key points:
Any clean strike will always score 1pt
Two clean strikes will score 2pts
Double hits score 0 for both fighters
A hit, followed by a valid counter hit scores 0 for both fighters
Blade strikes and thrusts always out score strikes with other parts of the weapon or grapples etc.

Section 3 – Penalties

Offence Penalty
Failure to present ready to fight: Loss of fight
Hard hitting : Warning
Seriously dangerous fighting, including unsafe grappling : Disqualification
Unsportsmanlike conduct : Severe Warning, loss of 1pt

Two warnings in any bout = Severe Warning and loss of 1pt
Two warnings across separate bouts = Severe warning, no loss of pt
Two severe warnings = disqualification

Section 4 - Other Logistics

1.Fighters must ensure that they are in the right place, at the right time, ready to fight.
(a)Fighters who are not ready to step into the ring when called by the referee will forfeit the fight. The winning opponent will be awarded their average score from their other bouts within that group.
2.Fighters must present themselves with appropriate equipment, including armour and weapons as indicated in the event rules
3.At any one time, two fighters should be engaged in the ring, two fighters should be ready to fight and two fighters should be “arming up” in the designated area.
4.All equipment must pass the safety checks made by the marshals for the bouts, as appropriate to the event.

Section 5 – FAQ and Sample Situations

Q: I strike my opponent in the head and they hit me in the leg after a step, what is the score?
A: 1 – 0 to you, as their counter hit is not valid (head or torso)

Q: I strike my opponent in the leg and they hit me in the body at the same time, what is the score?
A: 0 – 0 for a double hit

Q: My rushes in and strikes me in the face (repeatedly) with the pommel, but I hit them with a thrust as they step in, what is the score?
A: 1 – 0 to you, as the blade beats the pommel, as long as your hit was before (or simultaneous with) theirs.

Q: I strike my opponent and they strike me three times in return, what is the score?
A: 0 – 0, because they have countered your strike. Nothing after that counts. However, your opponent must be careful that they are not excessive, or they may get a penalty.

Q: My opponent hits me then retreats out of the ring. What is the score?
A: If you do not counter the hit in 1 step, then the score is 1 – 0 to your opponent.

All the best and we look forward to seeing you there!

Colin Richards
Organiser Championship

[Daniel Duxfield]

Also, have a look at this blog.
It has to do with HEMA and re-enactors fighting together.

http://historical-academy.co.uk/blog/2011/08/12/does-hema-have-a-role-in-historical-re-enactment/

Cheers. As always, read and comment.

[Callum]

[Colin]

If you (plural) do decide to do NAAMA++, I'd suggest making it more future proof (i.e. adaptable to changes in knowledge and participant wants).

At this point in time I'd like Callum's proposed workshops to be the enforced entry point for those wanting to participate in the tournaments Callum organises: i.e., attend and practice, and can enter versus don't attend and you cannot enter.

That way the rules can be explained in better detail: for example understanding what right of reply is and isn't, the level of contact required versus what is excessive or correspondingly pathetic. We can also emphasise a certain level of safety we are after, for example, no head or back turning, break falls and so forth.

It may also allow Callum (and myself) to be able to explain what we are trying to achieve. I mention this last point because I’ve watched many tournaments or fight systems become an exploitation of the rules, for example, Callum doesn’t want to allow hand hits. By not allowing hand hits domineering hand positions become possible where they would otherwise invite a hand or finger-thumb removal if they were attempted. While I understand Callum’s sympathises (digits are easy to break), it severely compromises the historical martial arts (IMO). By running these workshops we are able to explain why we’ve removed valid hand hits from a safety perspective, but this does not mean participants should exploit this compromise. This example is assuming the cruciform or similar hilts by the way.

Perhaps over time the workshops might no longer be required to participate as the concepts and rules filter down and through the re-enactment groups and individuals, but this would be a "wait and see" dependency.

Speaking of tournaments I’d like to see the culture of seconds fostered. Not only will the seconds be responsible for hydration, impromptu gear maintenance and the like, they will also hold a towel for when their 'man' can no longer fight (as in throw in the towel). I’m of the opinion that an appointed second should be mandatory for participants. Seconds have been part and parcel of the duel and the prize fight. In fact boxing, the descendent of prize fighting, still retains the concept of the second to this day.

[Daniel Duxfield]

So Colin, you're saying that you want to vet everyone coming in to the tournament. And prevent fighters from using certain techniques because you don't agree with them.

Not to be snide, but that sounds like you're being overly cautious. Learning a martial art is one thing but the only way to know it you're any good at it is to practice it against an equal opponent. That's like joining the army but you don't want to fight in a war.

I agree that safety is a concern, but if I didn't want to risk being hit by a car I wouldn't cross the road.

[Colin]

No, that's not what I'm saying at all.

[Daniel Duxfield]

ok. I don't do politics, so maybe I took that the wrong way.

I just want to train in my favorite weapons and test myself against other people of a similar inclination. I appreciate the martial aspect of what I/we do. That's the only reason I do it. I train at the gym 3-4 days per week to get stronger and fitter and keep up with my kick boxing for that very reason.

Excuse me if I want to fight some Norse, some Romans, some English and anyone else who wants to step up. I'm not the greatest swordsman in the world, I just want to at least prove myself.

Then have a beer/mead/ale/wine with my former opponents and laugh about and learn from the experience.

I'll take my lumps like any man at arms, and I'll give as good as I get. I ain't gonna kill you, but don't expect it to be easy.

[Callum]

[Daniel Duxfield]

I think the spirit of the events that Callum and I are proposing are sound. I shouldn't knock you nor anyone for what you are trying to organise.

I will have more discussions and test some rules and scoring methods at my club training and get back to everyone.

I will start small with a south island tourney and grow it from there.

[Silver]

hmmmm can I hit leah hard???
or should i tie her down first

mwahahahahah

[Chantelle]

Firstly – thankyou Duxfield for suggesting another way for us all to get together. It was getting close to moderator hat time however in some of the comments back and forth so please watch people watch the accusations….

There are a lot of things that I am reading in this thread – I apologise for the length of this but here goes….

Trust the girl (me) who has just had 6 and a half weeks of a hospital bed with a botched back operation. It would have been a slow recovery anyway – but you think you are invincible till it is all taken away. Now even general bending, lifting, lack o fitness causes frustration and pain – not to mention the daily general pain. I am sure that if someone could avoid being taken away in an ambulance from ANY of the tournaments where this has happened they would be happy.

Yes we should take responsibility for our actions in battle and take our lumps but hindsight is a beautiful thing and laying strapped to a orange board wondering if a gorget would have prevented that, or staring at the snapped rapier blade in your chest or leg and realising puncture proof clothing would have prevented this doesn’t solve the repercussions for both the person and the organiser. Only pre-empting these potential issues does.

Test mettle that is fine – but there is a difference between bruises (hard core ones even) and broken necks that could be avoided with basic understanding of your opponents style(if you are fighting different time periods) and your own safety gear.

For grapples, pommel strikes, throws etc – not all clubs teach them…if you are going to run a tourney with these in it as an allowed rule - do a workshop on how to do them / fall safely etc - once again this is dislocated shoulder etc and broken back territory if even an part of it is done wrong.

You asked Carl if we we insist on gorgets, chain maile, coifs and helms – not every club insists on all these things, especially gorgets (one of the most important things in my opinion as they stop issues with necks, wind pipes, spinal cords and general neck injuries) – I am glad you enforce these things. Would these things be a requirement in your tournament? Have a look at the safety equipment thread for all the discussion on these and other things

Fencing masks do not stop head blows becoming serious – steel with mesh on the front does a better job of preventing serious face and head injuries.

As for looks – as an experiment my friends bought the police leg and arm gear (before this discussion) and also bought a hide ($20) and some beeswax, and did both. They tested them. Not only did they work the same (so that is fine), the medieval style ones were more comfortable, and they didn’t have to spend more money on period gear later on, they already had it…an argument for the cost side of things.

The SCA also made suits out of pickle barrel plastic back in the day – it’s effective, cheap and can end up looking real depending on how your finishing it if you are really that way inclined.

Derek Toombs also makes awesome armour – very very good prices and quality.
Justins offer is a valid one.

You say the back is a target in your training– it is a dangerous target if not protected properly because of the spine. This needs to be a consideration for a tournament.

Taupo, Harcourt and other events are outside naama frameworks. During Canterbury faire, I was talking to some steel guys from the south island (some have never met steel fighters from north island etc) there were a lot of mis-conceptions about steel fighting in the North Island , clubs, naama and the other events held….this kind of misconception causes a lot of the politics etc that you say you are trying to avoid Duxfield…be careful of this for future discussions….

“if you are prepared to have kit which will stand up to what you are facing which is combat….you take your chances like everyone else” the ‘kit’ needs to be defined before the tourney to prevent all foreseeable accidents.

Samurai vs medieval is a dodgy argument. Theory is more effectively tested if it is against those who also knows your style. If you want to go beyond your style to EXPLORE other things by fighting other styles, just be aware that your $500 + sword and rapier against each other will end up wrecked, as rapiers are not meant for percussive strikes etc. may I suggest for this type of fight your find the rattan sticks they use in eastern training – safer than a thick metal weapon designed for percussive strikes against a light rapier designed to push, draw cut and poke. Saves expensive equipment being ruined to demonstrate a pop culture discussion.

On this topic I know from personal experience the issues associated with changing head space and skill when fighting different styles after a long time of doing another – or for the first time completely. This is not blowing my own trumpet but because you don’t know me very well (just some words on a forum) my background is as a secondary schools fencing champion originally, Provost of Lochac at Rowany Festival in Australia, and many years of being proficient in a range of weapons (and placing in competitions at easter and naama) in metal weapon. At festival I had had 8 years of metal weapon behind me – and had only just authorised in rapier…TOTALLY different styles. Trying to get my head around push/ draw cuts, face and body point strikes, and the rules in general did my head in the first day – I died horridly (and kept percussive hitting my opponents accidentally) second day my brain clicked, I remembered fencing moved and won (total fluke I swear), my point is you need to know the basics to be safe – as those split seconds where you are facing an opponent that has suddenly grappled you, pushed a pommel into your face or is hitting you in the back happens too fast if you are unaware.

To avoid this in tournament – and to avoid discrimination you are worried about, everyone should have to prove their ability to fight before taking the field properly. Maybe a warm up half speed fight that demonstrates what they do? How safe they are?

If we just put people in the ring that say they can fight, that also have random time periods and weapons – it may turn into some gladiatoresque injury prone event.

I don’t want to come across as a nana –and I have had my time taking my lumps for the fun of it – but this is not the middle ages or renaissance, I am not fighting for my actual life and I don’t need to fight a dual at dawn to prove myself better than the next man. We are fighting for fun – and in the spirit of your original idea - to learn from each other……

So once again – maybe workshops first on the different styles, then when fully geared up for maximum protection because accidents happen (especially against people we are unfamiliar with or that have different styles) etc…..

Thanks for reading – I hope it helps you with your further thoughts and discussions on the topic of an event…

[Leah]

*thwacks Silver on the nose with a wet newspaper* Behave yourself, or no cookie for you!! *thwack thwack*

[Robbo]

*Takes Leah's newspaper and thwacks her on the nose with * You leave my silver alone or no cookie for you *thwack* Naughty Leah, bad Leah ... poor poor Silver.