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Carl
Location: Just beyond the firelight
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 Posted: Sun Aug 21, 2011 12:43 am |
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I have been thinking about this idea for the last few days(can't get it out of my head would be a better term  ) this thinking has led me to an idea.
An open tournament to my mind means bring what you got and put it down(to use street terms) so hows this;
common sense rules on the day, you must fight so that your opponent can walk out of the ring under thier own power and upright.
Basic SCA safety equipment ie; Suspension harness full face helm that is thrust and lateral strike safe, gorget that fully encircles the throat, rigid elbow, knee, groin and spine ( lumbar) protection any other armour is up to the individual.
club captains or instructors must vouch for members and will be held responsible for injuries caused through unsafe or poor technique.
three judges, two marshalls, one safety inspector, one scorer.
straight up elimination(in case of odd numbers a name is drawn out of a hat to fight twice)
three rounds; round 1 first to three clean hits (hit without being hit rule, three irish's and the bout is forfeited)
round 2; first to six hits
round 3; first to nine
last man standing wins
No bollocks about this style that style this period that period just show up and fight with what ever you got.
simple no essay length onion layered rules just be safe don't hurt anyone and fight hard.
cheers
Carl
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It is not enough to say I will not be evil. Evil must be fought wherever it is found
Last edited by Carl on Sun Aug 21, 2011 11:09 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Mad Jim
Location: Dunedin
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| Posted: Sun Aug 21, 2011 9:59 am |
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Sounds good, but for the likes of armour, not all of us have SCA standard type armour or can afford the likes! So that would cancel us out.
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I like living.. |
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Carl
Location: Just beyond the firelight
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| Posted: Sun Aug 21, 2011 11:10 am |
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Justin how much would it cost to knock up five or six decent and cheap full face helms with a suspension harness and mesh to protect the face.
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It is not enough to say I will not be evil. Evil must be fought wherever it is found |
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Chantelle
Moderator
Location: Auckland
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Carl
Location: Just beyond the firelight
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| Posted: Sun Aug 21, 2011 6:03 pm |
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Patch
I am most terribly sorry but I accidentaly deleted your post. I must have hit the "Edit" button instead of the "Quote" button.
could you put it up again
once again so very very sorry 
Carl
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It is not enough to say I will not be evil. Evil must be fought wherever it is found |
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Carl
Location: Just beyond the firelight
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| Posted: Sun Aug 21, 2011 6:05 pm |
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| Mad Jim wrote: | | Sounds good, but for the likes of armour, not all of us have SCA standard type armour or can afford the likes! So that would cancel us out. |
Let me explain By "SCA standard safety requirements" I meant helmet, elbow and knee Cops, a wide kidney belt of staunch leather to protect the kidneys and lumbar region, and some kind of groin protection.
the helmet would have to have all of the gaps shrunk and backed up with steel mesh to allow for steel fighting, and be of a safe thickness throughout.
How many serious re-enactors can't either make most of that themselves or don't know someone who can or at least help.
Or don't already have all or most of that in thier kit already?
The re-enactment community in NZ has advanced in leaps and bounds over the last ten years, when I started seeing someone in a full harness of armour was the exception and you could count the number of professional armouers on one hand.
Now things are very different and getting access to good, safe, well made period accurate armour is very easy.
Quite frankly if you cant get the armour together to compete in a "National" level event you shouldn't be entering it in the first place.
Cheers
Carl
_________________
It is not enough to say I will not be evil. Evil must be fought wherever it is found
Last edited by Carl on Sun Aug 21, 2011 6:24 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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allfiredup
Location: Taumarunui
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| Posted: Sun Aug 21, 2011 6:20 pm |
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| Quote: | | Justin how much would it cost to knock up five or six decent and cheap full face helms with a suspension harness and mesh to protect the face. |
Good Helms arnt easy to make, espcially thrust proof ones.
Basically - $300- $500 made by me, with the full works...however....
$40 and a bottle of whiskey i'll teach you how to make one.
$150-250 imported, 2mm mild, wont be a fencing helm face but would be rigid and would be guarenteed by me for a year.
None of the helms I personaly use I would consider thrust to the face proof, not with a two handed sword blow. Is this a path we really want to go down with period helms.... as well as side shots to the head?
Thanks - Justin
PS From Sophie - I like the idea of lend a helm, we use the same principal with training swords, they are heavy and ungainly and make Newbies cry for a nice sword faster. Make the helms safe but not too nice 
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Ignorance is bliss, knowledge is power.
www.afultd.com |
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Carl
Location: Just beyond the firelight
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| Posted: Sun Aug 21, 2011 6:35 pm |
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| allfiredup wrote: | | Quote: | | Justin how much would it cost to knock up five or six decent and cheap full face helms with a suspension harness and mesh to protect the face. |
Good Helms arnt easy to make, espcially thrust proof ones.
Basically - $300- $500 made by me, with the full works...however....
$40 and a bottle of whiskey i'll teach you how to make one.
$150-250 imported, 2mm mild, wont be a fencing helm face but would be rigid and would be guarenteed by me for a year.
None of the helms I personaly use I would consider thrust to the face proof, not with a two handed sword blow. Is this a path we really want to go down with period helms.... as well as side shots to the head?
Thanks - Justin |
OK lets go for the gusto
$500 per helmet x 6 helms = $3000 divided by lets say 30 contestents (its a national event after all) = $100, theres your entrance fee.
and that is working at top rates.
we get a kick ass tourney at a national level (something that ahs never been done before in this country).
Justin gets a healthy bank balance that I am sure he would use to improve his ability to produce top shelf kit, which could only benefit our community.
who loses here?
| Quote: | | PS From Sophie - I like the idea of lend a helm, we use the same principal with training swords, they are heavy and ungainly and make Newbies cry for a nice sword faster. Make the helms safe but not too nice |
Nic did it at taupo with fencing masks admittly helms are more expensive but you cant make lambs without a horny ram (ok that made no sense  )
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It is not enough to say I will not be evil. Evil must be fought wherever it is found |
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Patch
Location: Auckland
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| Posted: Sun Aug 21, 2011 11:47 pm |
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| Quote: | Patch
I am most terribly sorry but I accidentaly deleted your post. I must have hit the "Edit" button instead of the "Quote" button.
could you put it up again |
Yup sure.
Quote:
"An open tournament to my mind means bring what you got and put it down; ... common sense rules on the day ... straight up elimination. -Carl"
Yup - Id fight in that, sounds like a blast.
| Quote: | "Basic SCA safety equipment ie; Suspension harness full face helm that is thrust and lateral strike safe, gorget that fully encircles the throat, rigid elbow, knee, groin and spine ( lumbar) protection any other armour is up to the individual."
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It is worth noting that a thrust under the chin against SCA style armour is safe with 1 1/2 inch rattan but may be possible to stabbie up through the throat with thin naked steel.
Might want to insist on a basic gambie or puncture resistant shirt too. Also the hit temperature will have to be carefully watched, the two handed sword thrusts clearly could puncture the archery mesh if done with force.
As a thought: It would be fairly easy I suspect to organize 2 sets of loaner gear for people who are under-equipped (small pun intended), then they get the joy of having to hotseat the delicious sweaty ill fitting armour... BUT they get to play. All good.
-Patch
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Callum
Sponsor
Location: Upper Hutt
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| Posted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 10:51 am |
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| allfiredup wrote: | Basically - $300- $500 made by me, with the full works...however....
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Hi Justin,
Did you ever work out a quote for the Windrose Armoury WMA helmets that Mike and I were using at Harcourt Park? These were for WMA (hence the late 14th C style) made to SCA standards.
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Callum Forbes
Order of the Boar - www.jousting.co.nz
Order of the Boar Historical Foot Combat -
www.hapkido.org.nz/upperhutt.html |
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allfiredup
Location: Taumarunui
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| Posted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 5:37 pm |
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First of all Callum - about $400 inc cloth aventail (like the one pictured below)
but.. - i would be dubious with the hlem that you showed me at harcourts. It was a bit thin and the welding wasnt brilliant. We could look at re-enforcing the weld a bit like most of the indian imports. However we can probably get this imported with custom specs a bit cheaper than I can make it, from one of my contacts overseas, rough figure $250 depending on shipping and the excchange but with a min of around 5 - 10 helms.
Next thing - What about a helm competition as well as the tournament. For example getting all the diffrent armourers to put in a helm or two into the competition. First place wins $800, 2nd wins $600, 3rd gets $400 and $200 for anyone who enters a decent helm. Then you get your 6 or more loaners and under budjet too. Any helms that dont come in the top 5 the armours can sell on. 1st place in the tournament gets to keep the 1st place helm and so on.
This can only encourage quality of gear and NZ made. Do this over the next 5 years and everybody in the country can have a helmet thats up to the specs.
I think $100 is abit much to enter a tourney, what about sponsorship?
Its up there for ideas ...
Thanks
Justin
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_________________
Ignorance is bliss, knowledge is power.
www.afultd.com |
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hopies
Location: Taumarunui
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| Posted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 5:41 pm |
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Justin - love you dearly, and I did marry you ....
But thats a stupid idea. If you win a tourney I would expect you to already have good gear.
Who knows who will enter a helm and who will be responsible for checking them? If I borrow one of your last place winners am I going to get my brains smacked out becasue your baby armourer cant weld, and we all felt they did a really good effort?
I would rather a rental deal - someone by 6 helms and rent them at $20 per tournament. Hell - i'll get a couple and start a lucrative business on the side.
........Justin I need 2 good helms please.
Sophie
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Ignore the stains behind the man behind the curtain. |
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allfiredup
Location: Taumarunui
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| Posted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 5:44 pm |
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first thing - if helms arnt up to spec they wont be even looked at, no matter how much effort. I think this would come under the rules of the helm making comp which will also need to be discussed in detail.
Asd to your request for 2 helms.... you know ive got a years waiting list... your last.
Justin
_________________
Ignorance is bliss, knowledge is power.
www.afultd.com |
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Carl
Location: Just beyond the firelight
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| Posted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 10:52 pm |
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The helm contest is a good idea but I feel including it as part of the tourney proper may muddy things, something like that could be a side contest.
Yes $100 is a lot for a tourney but that was just brainstorming the price would have to come down of course. I am envisioning this as a weekend event, there is too much possibility of large numbers of competitiors, I have run tourneys with 25+ entrants and that was hell.
The picture you put up is exactly what I was seeing as a loner helm, but I have moved on from the loner idea, this is conceivably the Top Tier of competition in our sport and you dont have the right kit for it you shouldn't be entering.
However I don't want to get bogged down with details right now things like sourcing kit can be sorted out later.
I think the first question we need to ask is, Do we want a national "championship" which is really what we are talking about here?
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It is not enough to say I will not be evil. Evil must be fought wherever it is found |
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Terme
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| Posted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 11:12 pm |
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What about modifying existing helms and adding a attachable/removable front face plate like the one in your picture $wise.
also how much for a suspension harness to be inserted?
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