Mail from Cap a Pie

[JohnF]

Has anyone bought mail from Cap-a-pie? They're an English company
making blackened riveted mail. I'd like to hear of any comments on the fit
and wear of their mail. http://www.capapie.co.uk/

They also use The Maille Tailor for alterations. Has anyone any comment on
this chaps service? http://www.mailletailor.co.uk/ I'm looking at
using him to make an aventail for a bascinet from Jolly Knight Armoury
http://jollyknight.com.ua/armoury/index.php?cPath=21_27.

[pmel018]

I have met this guy at a number of events and seen his mail. It's certainly among the best of the current crop of riveted mail, still made in India, but nice all the same.
Can't comment on the other vendor.

[JohnF]

Cheers Phil. Cap-a-pie seemed good when I looked through their website.
It's nice to have a third party comment on their quality.

Do you know if their default hauberks are tailored with a narrow waist, fitted
sleeves, and a proper armpit that allows full range of motion? Probably a
question I can now direct at Cap-a-pie, but if you can comment that'd be
nice.

What about wear and tear on undergarments from the rivets?

I know that GDFB make riveted mail, but it has a tubular chest and t-shirt
style join for the arms, and the sleeves make wearers look like they have
bingo wings. Which is why I've been looking around, and found Cap-a-pie.
I'm aware that I'll need to get any mail garment tailored, it's just a question
of how much. Because Cap-a-pie are good, I'll trust their recommendation
of The Maille Tailor.

[Callum]

I get my riveted mail from SN Exports (India) and can vouch not only for the quality but also for its robustness - I have taken several off-target hits and lance deflections in the joust where the impact of the hit has been taken on the maille and not only has it withstood the impact with little or no damage but also prevented me from getting serious injuries on a number of occassions.

You can get SN maille from King of Swords but I can also order from them direct and if you (or anybody else) are interested I am placing an order later this week (mostly for a full maille horse trapper - it should look awesome )

www.snexports.com

[mikronn]

Hi John and all

I got some of the SN Exports riveted maille last time Callum did an order and it both fits and works well.

Wearing it just over a leine (as the gallowglass apparently did and didn't) was comfortable enough and I've taken a few hits with nothing other than mild bruising and no obvious damage to the maille

With a belt around the natural waist it sits nicely on the shoulders and doesn't really seem to slow me down.

Wasn't that expensive either

cheers

mike

[JohnF]

Thanks for the pointer to SN Exports. Are they the company that supplies
mail to GDFB? Have you been able to supply them measurements, or do
they only work on chest size? Callum, Mike, what link diameter, gauge,
finish, shape, and rivet type do you have?

Callum, thanks for the offer of combining shipping. I'll pass for now. I won't
be buying mail till next year. Given the price it's worth spending a little time
shopping around. It'd be good to see a video of your horse once it's wearing
the trapper.

[mikronn]

Hi John

Not sure if they supply GDFB - Callum may know. I do know the guy came out here and Callum introduced him to Richard Taylor, who was interested in his stuff!

The maille is flat ring, wedge riveted, ID of the links is 9mm. Finish is dull (but not galvanised) and the maille arrived well oiled. Some of that is now on my leine but hey, its accurate! The links are 2 mm wide and ~1mm thick and combined in the classic 5-in-1 section style.

As I noted the fit is very good indeed and once on and properly set I have found training for several hours to be no major issue.

He does measure on chest size but i have found the other fit is fine

hope that helps

cheers

mike

[Callum]

Hi John,

PM sent.

In hindsight I would have ordered Mike's haubergeon in the next size up as the sizing charts don't factor in underlying padding. Because Mike portrays an Irish 'Gallowglas' he doesn't need padding but if he decided to portray something else and use padding then the haubergeon would be a little tight. So if you decide to order maille items from KoS, GDFB or whoever than you should take this into account.

[JohnF]

I've done a little more reading. I'm fairly certain I'd prefer a tailored mail
shirt. It'll cost more, but it'll weigh less and fit better (yes I did read
Callum's and Mike's comment on the good fit of SN mail). Here's a
diagram showing how a suit in the Wallace Collection was tailored.
I don't know the date of manufacture.

A Two lines of expansions over the shoulders.
B Row contractions to taper the sleeves.
C Two lines of contractions under the shoulder blades to compensate
for the expansions over the shoulders. Original suit has nine contractions
per set with one contraction every four rows.
D Contractions for waist. Wallace suit has two sets of four
contractions; one at the front and the other at the rear.
E Expansions for the hips. Original suit has four lines of these, two at
the sides and one at the front and back. Each line has one expansion per
four rows.
F Two knot type row expansions per side to make the back of the suit
four rows longer than the front.

It's from http://homepage.ntlworld.com/trevor.barker/farisles/guilds/armour/mail.htm

Compare this with the SN design, which does have decent armpits, but
doesn't explicitly show that it has been made with contractions and
expansions elsewhere on the garment.


When the time comes I'll ask SN about tailoring. If they do I'll compare
that with Cap-a-pie+The Maille Tailor's price, and see if anyone in NZ is
wanting to do a parallel import.

Callum, thanks for the reminder about sizing. It is important to get it
right. I'm flipping coins between CoP or other cuirass. But I can't get them
until I know what my measurements are in mail, and I can't do that until I
have a 14th C gambie.

1366 Turingen Gambie from Jolly Knight Armoury http://jollyknight.com.ua/ $150USD


Cuirass from JKA


CoP from Winter Tree Crafts http://www.wintertreecrafts.com/CoP.html $475USD

[mikronn]

Hi John

Understand completely - hope the maille works out well for you. myArmory also had a few good threads recently on maille.

I wear a relatively cheap brigandine over the maille for WMA. I've modified it a bit - Callum and I both replaced the inner lining with something heavier. I've since added some shoulder plates as well - bloke in the UK made them but now I've seen them I'd be relatively confident to do it myself.

Not exactly period nor in keeping with the gaelglaich (galloglas) but probably safer. Callum also made me wear shoes and padded cuisses last time as well

On that note - sparring with the sparth is out as well!

cheers

mike

[JohnF]

I also do a bit of reading at myArmoury.

Dan Howard writes well thought out articles and posts on myArmoury.
Such as http://www.myarmoury.com/feature_mail.html. He
wrote a neat thread about the merits of Indian mail vs the good stuff that
Erik D. Schmid makes. Though I can't find it now. Little things like how
soft iron will deform and prevent the weapon from penetrating, as
opposed to hard steels which snap.

Brigandine appears to fit a better range than solid plate. Suitable for
wearing with or without mail, yes? Mike, do you have any pics of your
brigandine? Which period is it based on?

One of the books I own specifically mention English infantry assaulting a
hill held by the Scots, barefoot. Bound to be many other examples.
Wearing the right footwear, or not, is important if we are interested in
fighting in the way of the ancients. Footwear with thick soles are for
marching long distances, heels are for stirrups, thin soled footwear is
preferred for combat. John Clements wrote a researched article about this
at http://www.thearma.org/essays/historical-footwear.html.
Once the soles are thin enough, or you're barefoot, it becomes possible to
grip the ground with our toes. Some modern soles prevent pivoting, which
means the foot must be lifted off the ground - and that's slower. Also
watched a TED talk by a marathon runner. He argued that shoes are the
leading cause of injuries in long distance runners, and that running
barefoot is much better for your body. I've noticed a change in my
fencing since switching from rubber soles to a 14th C style shoe (although
it has thickened leather sole).

There's always a trade off when we want to be safe. Armour up, pull
blows, soften weapons, or change the distance or timing. I choose shoes

[mikronn]

Hi John

I tend to wear just the brig for normal WMA classes. Nice amount of protection, good weight. Goes really weall over the maille though.

The brigandine follows (well sort of I'm sure they overlapped) the coat of plates and was 14-15th century generally, itself overlapping the plate armor that followed. I bought mine from Kult of Athena - made by Windlass.

There is a picture in the Osprey Galloglass 1250 - 1600 (Fergus Cannan) that shows one galloglas apparently wearing a brig. As the galloglas were Hebridean/Scots in origin its not too surprising. It also seems like the Irish tended to be a little behing the rest of Europse -probably a combination of tradition and relative wealth.

In the same image, one of the fighters wears turnshow style boots and the other just sandals. The kern are barefoot.

There was a good recent thread on myArmory about the discovery of some shoes with rope attacked across the heel and forward part of the sole - for grip.

I have to say for armed combat I agree with you John. I was being clever with a training partner and she parried a kick with her longsword blunt. Lovely bruise!

cheers

mike

[Callum]

Hi John,

Looks as if you have a good solid plan for your kit and you can't beat the tailored stuff. Doing the research first is also good as you will save yourself a lot of money by "doing it once and doing it right".

I am in the process of making a similar CoP myself using bacially the same colour of leather.

[Bogue]

Just a note on leather foundation CoP.

Could I suggest that you line with a canvas or heavy linen as this will prevent a lot of stretch in the leather.
And by "Line" I mean glue it to the back of the leather.
It is also cheaper to make up as a mock-up for sizing and then glue panels to leather with the seam allowance already included.

For a really good pattern I suggest this:-

http://www.armourarchive.org/patterns/brig/

Anything on AA done by Sinric (Craig Nadler) is awesome and some.
This has to be the sexiest Brig on earth:-

http://www.eskimo.com/~cwn/brig_craig1.html

Just my $1:50 worth

cheers
Bogue

[JohnF]