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JohnF
Location: Palmy
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 Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2012 5:59 pm Going pell mell during summer break |
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Had a bash at the pell today. Broke a steel capped club made from a staff that I'd
broken. Can anyone refer me to any sources that state what a club, or mace, can do
to a person through armour and shields?
Padded, neighbour friendly, pell with broken club and indestructable plastic waster.
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Mad Jim
Location: Dunedin
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| Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2012 6:08 pm |
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The good ole pell! I broke about 7 inches off one of my wasters last night on the pell...I was going rather hard and striking not with the strong but more the weak! Still the waster can still be used as a trainer for hilt grips and hilt grabs!
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English Warbowman
Location: Hawkes Bay
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| Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2012 7:02 pm |
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Hi John, there's a primary source (which I shall have a look for) that states that the lead mauls that the archers used at Agincourt either caved in helmets or rendered the wearer senseless.
I've spent quite some time trying to find any artistic representation of archers with the said weapon but to no avail. There are lots of pictures of MAA with big two handed hammer/mallet type weapons so It's possible they are the same thing. |
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English Warbowman
Location: Hawkes Bay
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| Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2012 7:16 pm |
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Found it.
The Religieux of St Denis mentions "lead covered mallets" so I would presume that the head was wooden and then encased in lead.
Wouldn't mind having a go with one of those myself. |
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mikronn
Location: Plimmerton
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Mad Jim
Location: Dunedin
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| Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2012 10:12 pm |
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Lead covered mallets? Sounds mean I shall look into them as I am always keen on maces/ warhammers etc. so these may be just as cool...and easy to make..
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Nathan
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| Posted: Sat Jan 07, 2012 1:48 am |
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"lead covered Mallets" I always take to mean something along the line of a modified version of what you would use to hammer in tent pegs - ie small but heavy head on a 2-3 foot shaft.
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Paper, Scissors, Poleaxe |
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JohnF
Location: Palmy
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| Posted: Sat Jan 07, 2012 8:01 am |
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| English Warbowman wrote: | The Religieux of St Denis mentions "lead covered mallets" so I would presume
that the head was wooden and then encased in lead. Wouldn't mind having
a go with one of those myself. |
Does this source go into more detail? I had a quick
google and couldn't find an English translation of this French document.
| Mike wrote: | | Here's a few sources." |
Thanks for the links, I'm currently working my way through the discussion on
Michael Edelson's armour penetration tests. I should also go back to my copy of
"The Battle of Wisby 1361".
I want to know what can and can't be done. Through test cutting and pell work I've
dropped and altered techniques. For example a strike with a staff to the ankle or
knee that ends with the staff in hanging guard, with overhand grip can't be relied
on to break something, but using an alternating grip and doing a down right blow
has a better chance.
Example of a strike ending in hanging guard.
In this particular case, I wondered about my chances of hitting a heater shield with
a club and breaking the radius or the ulna. I know that a moderate blow will
intimidate some fighters who play 'sword tag' in light tournaments and forget that
a shield is armour. But is it martially valid? I did do a test a few months back with
someone doing full force blows, with a sword, against me holding a heater. I felt a
small amount of pain where my forearm, near the elbow, touched the shield. But
pain is useless against a motivated enemy. I suspect that if the shield was better
designed I wouldn't have felt any pain. But a weapon such as a mace, or pollaxe
may be able to break something? |
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Mad Jim
Location: Dunedin
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| Posted: Sat Jan 07, 2012 8:43 am |
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For the heater shield I think it depends if you pad it out, as almost no matter how you hold it some part of your arm will be touching, my shield has the standard steel grip and leather forearm loop..one day I'll make a historic example of the grip system!...anyway I have them padded at the elbow as that seems to be the part that rests the most on the shield and without the padding as you know you get pain!
Though on saying this if someone is really forcefully attacking you they can end up smashing through your shield..
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I like living.. |
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JohnF
Location: Palmy
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| Posted: Sat Jan 07, 2012 11:11 am Re: Destroying shields |
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| Mad Jim wrote: | Though on saying this if someone is really forcefully attacking you
they can end up smashing through your shield.. |
I agree. I put a hole in Patch's shield with a blunt spear tip, with a light harassing thrust.
Plenty of primary sources talk about shields being destroyed. Question is, could that
first blow also harm the enemy?
Patch, how close to an original shield would you say that shield is? |
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Mad Jim
Location: Dunedin
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| Posted: Sat Jan 07, 2012 1:09 pm |
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Well there are accounts of guys taking a couple of shields with them to battles and tournaments etc.. so Id say they got smashed lots! proberly a few broken arms as well!
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I like living.. |
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mikronn
Location: Plimmerton
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| Posted: Sat Jan 07, 2012 2:46 pm Pells, shields and armour |
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Hi All
I have to say I have had the opposite problem to you with pells - my sparth smashes mine up a treat and its a blanket then rope wrapped 150mm post. Controlled blows are just wrecking the top. I shudder to think what it would do to anyone it hits. I cannot think of a way to swing it with any kind of purpose at someone in armor and not do concussive damage.
You're welcome for the references John. Watching the YouTube recreation of William Marshall's melee style tourneys (and the Battle of Nations - modern equivalent) it seems similar to unarmed. You either have to bash your opponent a lot or get them a good one to an unprotected area or get them on the ground.
This is where much of testing or armour penetration is let down - but understandably so. Hitting a moving target square and with enough force to do damage is way different to stationary (sorry for 'teaching to suck eggs' there).
I'm interested in your thoughts on shields. I have only ever trained I.33 (buckler) and the buckler is largely NOT used for blocking blows. Its designed as a cover to attack behind. I can readily imagine a blow taken on a stationary shield doing damage to shield and arm. Do you try and move the shield to intercept on and angle and before/after the blow has been fully thrown? In that way it would never land square.
cheers
mike |
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JohnF
Location: Palmy
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| Posted: Sat Jan 07, 2012 4:04 pm |
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| Mike wrote: | I have to say I have had the opposite problem to you with pells - my sparth smashes
mine up a treat and its a blanket then rope wrapped 150mm post. Controlled blows are
just wrecking the top. I shudder to think what it would do to anyone it hits. |
I had the same issue before I padded my pell with old carpet. Plus I was conscious
of the loud noise of hitting the wood. Pells are wonderful for learning how to fight in
earnest.
My pell after it's first hour me hitting it with a staff.
| Mike wrote: | This is where much of testing or armour penetration is let down - but understandably
so. Hitting a moving target square and with enough force to do damage is way different
to stationary (sorry for 'teaching to suck eggs' there). |
I agree. A good part of the thread you referred me to, by Michael Edelson, discussed the
validity of the target used.
| Mike wrote: | I'm interested in your thoughts on shields. I have only ever trained I.33 (buckler)
and the buckler is largely NOT used for blocking blows. Its designed as a cover to
attack behind. I can readily imagine a blow taken on a stationary shield doing damage to
shield and arm. Do you try and move the shield to intercept on and angle and
before/after the blow has been fully thrown? In that way it would never land square. |
My knowledge of shields is scant. I know very little about how they were constructed,
and other than sword & buckler fight books I am unaware of any extant sources for
learning the use of other medieval shields. I have had some training from people who
are successful tournament fighters. The training was specific to winning light contact
tournaments. Not war.
There are clues in some extant artwork. But I'm not sure how much to read into them. Eg
the following picture suggests moving the shield, rather than the body, and closing a
high line whilst striking the body. What is unclear is the tactical circumstance. Was it
training for war, or for tournament?
The test I did was because I was concerned about how hard I was hitting other peoples'
shields. I likened hitting a shield to hitting plate harness. All the people I know who wear
plate hate 'dying' or losing because someone tagged them lightly on their armour.
Harness wearers in the anachronistic tournaments I've been in prefer strong blows from
a sword, they want to know that the extra effort of wearing armour doesn't put them at a
disadvantage. Never mind that a sword can't cut plate. I rationalised that those carrying
shields were in the same boat. On the flip side I was aware that I was hitting shields
harder than other people around me. This suggested that I was wrong in my approach
for these tournaments. So I got a big sturdy lad to deliver powerful downright sword
blows onto my shield whilst I stood there and took them. No rolling of the shield. No
evasion. From this I concluded that for some opponents it is right to hit a shield hard.
Also that there are some who shouldn't be. This has to do with the mental attitude of the
opponent rather than risk of injury. For example people whose shields should be hit
gently include the unfit, the inexperienced, those who have lead sheltered lives.
Generally I do this based on how they move. If someone charges towards me like Conal
does, they get a a hard whack on the shield. If they cower in the corner they get a tap.
Please note that I'm stressing hitting the shield. There is potential for a blow intended
for a shield to be redirected for an unarmoured point of the body. Training,
awareness, and discipline are key to safety.
Last edited by JohnF on Sat Jan 07, 2012 5:12 pm; edited 3 times in total |
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JohnF
Location: Palmy
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| Posted: Sat Jan 07, 2012 4:06 pm |
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| Please delete this post |
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Mad Jim
Location: Dunedin
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| Posted: Sat Jan 07, 2012 7:21 pm |
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A side note: I found that when peoples first come up against an opponent with a shield they tended to smash at the shield as hard as they could, in one instance a fellow decieded that he was out to shatter my shield, an this was with an axe, lucky I tend to roll the shield and deflect blows and not to take full force hits front on! In a re-enacment situation you don't really want some twat trying to smash your shield for the sake of smashing it, as you just have to fork out time and money to replace it. Also I found that you had the stabbers, those people that just like to stab at your shield, does nothing other than gouge holes into your shield, as I pointed out to my guys...keep stabbing and putting holes, you render our shields useless as I wasn't prepared to buy/make more, plus you should be stabbing at an opening not a defence unless your getting your man to move to your advantage.
In warfare with life and death, by all means the damage done to an opponents shield via stabbing or smashing will render the shield useless and thus lower his/her defence, but on this would you try to smash the shield or work around it so you can dispatch your opponent qickly before they did the same to you? I favor fients and getting my opponents to go where I want them so I can by pass the shield, but then I have never been in a life or death situation, where I would be fighting tooth and nail! A shield punch here and there, a hard high strike downward, thusts, kicks, slams...
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