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Bogue
Sponsor
Location: Palmy
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 Posted: Thu Aug 16, 2007 7:57 am shields |
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And then Colin said
| Quote: | | I don't believe this is the place, however, to discuss how shields should or shouldn't be used in real terms as this forum is about re-enactment combat (I ruffle enough feathers as it is ) |
Actually Colin it is the disparaging comments rather than the information that ruffles feathers. If you rely on accurate documentation and resources it never hurts to put it across to the rest of us. I have learned something from many of your posts and am saddened by the fact that Re-enactment combat appears unworthy of being enlightened.
Come on man, you got the goods, so spill it. You never know it might improve the style of R-E combat.
Cheers
Bogue |
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Colin
Location: Wellington
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| Posted: Thu Aug 16, 2007 7:59 am |
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| Joel of Old wrote: | | I assume, Colin, that you refer to this in re-enactment terms. Yes shields are invincible, and second best only to distance as a defense. |
Yes.
I think it prudent that I leave this argument here.
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The person who writes for fools is always sure of a large audience.
- Arthur Schopenhauer
See http://www.swordsmanship.co.nz/ |
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pmel018
Principal Sponsor
Location: Wokingham, near Reading, UK
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| Posted: Thu Aug 16, 2007 8:47 am Re: shields |
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| Bogue wrote: | And then Colin said
| Quote: | | I don't believe this is the place, however, to discuss how shields should or shouldn't be used in real terms as this forum is about re-enactment combat (I ruffle enough feathers as it is ) |
Actually Colin it is the disparaging comments rather than the information that ruffles feathers. If you rely on accurate documentation and resources it never hurts to put it across to the rest of us. I have learned something from many of your posts and am saddened by the fact that Re-enactment combat appears unworthy of being enlightened.
Come on man, you got the goods, so spill it. You never know it might improve the style of R-E combat.
Cheers
Bogue |
You forget the number of times Colin has claimed to have no interest in re-enactment for any number of reasons. It is a common, and much overworked, theme in many of his posts.
Phil |
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Nathan
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| Posted: Thu Aug 16, 2007 9:23 am |
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English Nick built a sheild for the 2nd Wellington Folk Festival that was based on the construction of the Black Prince shield - no nails, curved, leather, canvas and gessoed (the leather was artifical). We spent about a 1/2 hour trying to smash it at his insistance with full force strike (about 3 of us). due to it construction we belive, little force was transfered into his arm while most went straight back to the sword. Can't remember whose sword (one of sacred sword old fellas) but the concussive force managed to shake apart the furishings so that it was non legal for combat till it was repaired. the only damage to the shield really was a tear in the fake leather.
My two cents (less tax) but just a thought as to what good shield design was able to do. I am thinking about building some similarly accurate shields in the near future.
Nathan
Schwertbruden aus Livonia
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Paper, Scissors, Poleaxe |
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Gerard Kraay
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| Posted: Thu Aug 16, 2007 11:18 am Re: shields |
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You forget the number of times Colin has claimed to have no interest in re-enactment for any number of reasons. It is a common, and much overworked, theme in many of his posts.
Phil
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This is true Phil, Colin does seam to despair about the fighting in re-enactment circles, and while I don’t agree with everything he has to say, his opinion is valid as it is usually centred on primary source material, which is more then can be said for many.
I continue to ask his opinion on matters regarding HEMA, and if we give any credence to fairness, don’t always attack the message, just because you don’t like the messenger.
Gerard
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"The Dragon made me do it." |
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conal
Site Admin
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| Posted: Thu Aug 16, 2007 11:22 am |
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So no one else plays battletech then...
ahwell... |
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Patch
Location: Auckland
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| Posted: Thu Aug 16, 2007 12:41 pm |
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Much as it's fun; if you go hard out at a shield then sooner or later you are going to smack the defender as they stick some fast moving bit out of cover. If you are splintering wood then you will splinter bone as easily.
I like to use an opened shield technique if I am defending only myself with it. Of course I am a very aggressive mobile fighter so it suits my style to open up my lines of attack. As soon as you are in the battle front and maintaining cover for several people you are forced to close down in my experience.
As far as respecting the message not attacking the messenger; I don't think Colin actually posted a message, just implied that he could if he wanted to and asked a scornful question, so all that was left to be amused at was the messenger. If he had talked about his knowledge of shield technique I would certainly read it with interest and respect, it was definitely worth reading what he had to say about sword blows for example.
I like the original edition one Battletech classic; before they brought in all that clan crud or old star league junk. Back in the days when all the working machines were cobbled and hacked together because no one had the ability to actually build the prime components. The decline into ruin of a great civilisation and the parasitical factions squabbling over the decaying scraps has always caught me as a plot theme. Also I liked the design of the mechs that they stole blatantly off of Roboteck.
FASA needs to do a new computer game mw4 was good but it has been a while. |
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conal
Site Admin
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| Posted: Thu Aug 16, 2007 1:55 pm |
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Yep 1st edition battletech pre clan that's the one.
Wolverine... 55tons of brawler W5R8J5, AC5, SRM6, MedLas. Love it.
Dave is on holiday Patch. He's doing the old Crusader Trail through Hungry over the Helespont, Anatolia and down the Levant. Loving it I should imagine.
I like round shields. Mike B, built mine, Stew refined the process.
Three sets of 7mm ply glued and nailed at cross angles with a canvas cover, leather on the lead edge. Internal padded brace - stuffed with possum fur and leather covered.
Wet the ply discs individually, span them twixt three stands equi-distant and wieght the centre with something heavy, like a big rock.
When they have conformed to the shallow dish you want, nail and glue the discs.
Its wieghty, but does balance the sword arm.
I've seem wicker and leather shields.
Paula has a plastic riot number thats quite flash.
Alf's Imperial Army use Cardboard. But thats Pacifist Warfare and an art in itself.
I wonder what Thorins was made of? |
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Carl
Location: Just beyond the firelight
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| Posted: Thu Aug 16, 2007 11:56 pm |
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| Conal you know what, we have on the wall a sheild that you might recognise, it has a well beaten Vauxhall hubcap for a boss, it now holds pride of place in the Lair. |
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conal
Site Admin
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| Posted: Fri Aug 17, 2007 3:07 am |
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Its owner was the only guy I saw would could actually look like one of the guys in that longsword buckler manual, "The Tower Fightbook" or whatever its dewy decimal number is.
In terms of posture and centre of gravity. |
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Victorius
Location: IMPERIVM ROMANA: The Roman club with a Living History focus.New Roman Club
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| Posted: Sat Aug 18, 2007 9:07 pm |
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| blackcrow wrote: | Hi Colin.
I was re-reading an article that was put out a while ago by the Romans I think, discussing that in single combat the shield is held out from the body in a type of side ward instead of directly in front of the body in the fashion of group combat, do you have any thought s on this.
I think it would make duelling with sword and shield a very different beast, as for a start your not presenting a nice large shield front as a target.
Any thoughts and references?
Gerard |
I don't recall the article, nor have I read the two SPADA articles Colin mentions, but there seem to have been a number of ways Romans deployed their shields. The Aemilius Paulus monument (Second Century BC) shows legionaries using their long curved ovals in an offensive manner, shoving the bottom ends upwards and outwards into the heads of their opponents. These moves may have been both to deflect sword or spear blows, or to whack their opponents. By the First centruy AD we are seeing reliefs and mosaics of gladiators using their shields in a similar manner. Sometimes the shield is near an opponent's weaon, signifying deflection. In other cases it is way over the weapon, bottom end right into the heads and faces of their opponents. A similar move is shown on the Mainz Principia whereby a front-rank legionary crouches down, his shield held vertically straight in front of him, while another behind him shoves the end of his shield over his companion's head and into the face of an unseen enemy. Often the shield is held vertically close to the body in the same way we often fight in line battles. The Adamklissi Tropaeum shows several legionaries with their shields held vertically right in front of them while they stab oppopents in the torso, but others show them held higher, bosses being shoved into enemy faces. But other sources, such as the Second Century AD Dar Buc Ammera mosaic show gladiators holding their shields in front of them, at an angle of about 45 degrees. No extant legionary depictions show this, possibly because of the close order combat being depicted, but many gladiator depictions show the shields held out at this angle. I have found that when fighting an opponent in single combat, this keeps them significantly out of range until I am ready to close. But it would not work with numbers of opponents, as someone off to the flank could get in and under the shield. Deploying my shield bottom end high into someone's face is not an option in NAAMA combat, (headblow or otherwise), but it might be interesting from a WMA persective, I don't know.
At any rate, shields appear to have been used to deflect blows, as well as absorb them. But deflection seems most likely. Offensive use of shields as depicted would be outside NAAMA rules.
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VICTORIVS, BA.MA.HONS.I, IMPERIVM. ROMANA |
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Bogue
Sponsor
Location: Palmy
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| Posted: Sun Aug 19, 2007 8:26 am shields |
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And Victorious did say:
| Quote: | | But other sources, such as the Second Century AD Dar Buc Ammera mosaic show gladiators holding their shields in front of them, at an angle of about 45 degrees. No extant legionary depictions show this, possibly because of the close order combat being depicted, but many gladiator depictions show the shields held out at this angle. I have found that when fighting an opponent in single combat, this keeps them significantly out of range until I am ready to close. |
A problem with this is that with a large oval or kite shield with an angle and a bottom edge close to the ground you are liable to wind up with Conal doing a Rat and Drainpipe impression, tapping you on a shoulder as he sails past you.
It looks funny but effective.
cheers
Bogue |
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Victorius
Location: IMPERIVM ROMANA: The Roman club with a Living History focus.New Roman Club
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| Posted: Sun Aug 19, 2007 9:07 am |
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Quite possibly. Although the upper end of the shield is against the shoulder or neck, and the whole thing can be dropped into vertical faster than an opponent can get past or around.
Still, it gives us something to train with, trying to see how to overcome it.
Basically, it's more of a holding position, keeping the opponent from closing until you're ready.
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VICTORIVS, BA.MA.HONS.I, IMPERIVM. ROMANA |
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Joel of Old
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| Posted: Sun Aug 19, 2007 3:56 pm Are shield strikes legal? |
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Subject line says it all really.
Are shield strikes legal?
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When they hit you, just smile back with broken teeth and spit them in their face. |
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conal
Site Admin
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| Posted: Sun Aug 19, 2007 9:22 pm |
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| Conditional Yep. |
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