More interesting Headblow?

[Victorius]

Saw one of the guys at the Taupo Jousting take a horizontal blow to the side of the head during the Headblow fighting at the arena late Sunday afternoon. It was great fighting, he was wearing a great helm, so no harm done, but it got me thinking...
What thoughts about extending the legal blows allowed in NAAMA Headblow to include more decapitation-like strikes, or even thrusts to the face and throat?
Not necessarily any more dangerous than normal Headblow, especially if the right face, side of head and throat protection are worn. For 14th century or later a Gorget or solid Bishop's Mantle could be worn, along with a dog-face visor, or full-visored Armet, depending on period. Going further back, great-helms could be worn, and many Norse already use aventails on their Gjermendu helmets like the Vendel-helm style (or whatever, correct me here if I'm off the mark please guys), so they could have more solid protection under there. Migraton-era had face-plates (eg Sutton-Hoo) and Romans can use gladiator helmets or sports-helmet face-masks. So authenticity need not be compromised for safety's sake, but incorporated within.
Thoughts please people?

[Stuart]

I think you guys have a death wish..

Head-blow = head-injury.

Go figure.

[griff]

head blow does not always = injury.
there is only one strike zone on the head and that is directly to the crown. sometimes things (weapons) do go astray for various reasons, but side decapatation type strikes as victorious mentioned may well be asking for trouble.

[Víkarr]

Thrusts to the face with metal weapons? Its hard enough to convince many re-enactors that vertical head shots are safe! Its quite a disconcerting feeling having a shinai thrust into your face when you are wearing a fencing mask, if you havent experienced this pop over sometime or drop by ASEMA. Do you know many re-enactment groups who practice this style of combat? If not there is probably a good reason why.

[Njal]

Ha! For once I agree with this Victorius. With the helmets Victorius mentioned sideways decapitating blows could be done reasonably safely.
I don't believe he mentioned thrusts only sideways strikes.
Griff might be right it may hurt the neck I guess if someone hit you when not prepared for it, say from behind or the side.
But the NZ Norsemen would do it anyway because we are hard.

And yes you were correct about the Gjermundbu/Vendel/Valsgarde/Sutton Hoo styling.

This Stuart has a lot to learn about headblow combat. It always amuses me to see people whom don't fight preach against it. Anti authenticity and anti headblow what group are you with exactly?

[Stuart]

I not anti-authenicity. Don`t misunderstand that. I have no problem with authencity standards in New Zealand. I do have issues with the the way in which authenticity standards are policed and arbitarlly changed in the UK. If you had to make new kit evey three months because of someone`s rule changes, you would be pretty pissed off in short order.
Fortunately Kiwis have more common sense than the Brits, and would not tolerate such sillyness.
My point here is that obsessive authenicity is damaging re-reactment in the UK.

Head blows. Leave all the macho postering aside for a minuite. We are not talking about a controlled vertical head tap ( Auckland Norse style ), we are talking the use of a stabbing pointed blow or a pile driving side-swipe.
--People it`s been done. It was tried in allmost every heavy combat plate armour group across the UK and one thing came out of it. Head injury.
Again & again. If you allow this to happen here someone wil get seriously hurt and you run a risk that the authorities will feel compelled to regulate re-enactment. Deaths have occured in England on the re-enactment battlefield and there have been call to restrict the activity. Scotland is enacting new laws to prohibit the general ownership of Swords. In England government-run Heath & Safety ( HOS ) have started to take the fun out of re-enactment.
-Do you want that to happen here ??

On wars. UK had unrestricted battles where the victory is left to the side
who has the best tactic and warriors. We met, fight, get drunk and have a party. That is not war.

Over to you.

[Snorri the Mad]

Hjatt?????????? are you all ergee's headblow is more safer then non you just need to toughen up

[Gerard Kraay]

In this I agree, that head blow combat is the way NAAMA should go, I will not fight in anything that does not include some form of head blow again as it detracts from the ability to demonstrate a combat style that is HEMA, bar sharps swords of course.
I do think that it needs to be a controlled strike to the head that is not going to whip lash the head around at all. Fighting against combatants of control in full-face protection, I would fight with vertical, incline and horizontal head blows and stab knocks to the face.
Currently that would have to be wasters and fencing masks for all blows, or metal swords and helms with full-face cover, with out the stab knocks. I am looking at getting a helm with a very strong fencing buff over the eyes, and then stab knocks will be possible. Again it’s all about control though.
I was talking to Steven Hand about this last week, he said in their school, Helms were only a necessity when people lost control, otherwise arming caps and fencing masks with neck protection were fine.

Gerard

[Stuart]

No way. This is a giant leap backwards for safe re-enactment. If you try to impliment this, the inevitable result will be a serious head-injury.
-think I am wrong ? , try it in your own back yard with your WMA mates and see how long you can take this sort of impact without visiting the hospital..
-Ever heard of risk assesment ??
( in any case, this sort of high-impact head-blow will demand that all your fellow re-enactors buy another expensive helmet. I for one cannot afford this sort of expense ).

Get real.

[Gerard Kraay]

You must have misread my posting as at no point did I use the words "high-impact head-blow" in fact I said "it needs to be a controlled strike to the head that is not going to whip lash the head around at all"
If that’s not clear let me elaborate
- A controlled strike to the head where your opponent will not suffer concussion or muscle discomfort. Why cant you conceive of controlled blows to the head, when NAAMA fights to the touch currently.
Seems to me that you are reacting without thinking about it or trying it.

Gerard

[Snorri the Mad]

Ha Ha so im not alone. non head blow is more dangerous because your elbows and knees become targets if you want to walk after fighting go for head blow

[Snorri the Mad]

ha it seems to me that you called up on this subject on another thread also by a norsemen just stop and listen to my friend blackcrow here

[Carl]

Stuart

i am with blackcrow on this one, I have avoided head blow for ages due to the same safety issues you seem to have. i once took a nasty point strike to my right eye and i have had a problem with blades coming near my head ever since.

but what gerard is talking about is not high impact head blow, in fact he is not advocating hitting any harder than we are already required to hit in NAAMA light combat.

I am highly aware of the need for adequate head protection but as far as i am concerned the responsibility is on the person behind the blow not the person recieveing. which translates into CONTROL, CONTROL, CONTROL.

I for one do not want to see the problems you spoke of in the UK occuring here so safety is my first, last, and number one priority, but i am also willing to give something a go, and do not want to see combat in NZ stagnate because we are unwilling to try new things.

And Snorri check the rules the elbows and knees ARE NOT targets, they can get hit but at no time are you allowed to deliberately target the joints. and if they do get hit, then as you seem to like saying.... Harden up

[Stuart]

The macho stuff does not impress me. The injury count at the Battle of Tewkesbury did.
This battle was traditionally seen as a heavy scrap, and not one for wimps. In the heat of battle many head blows were landed with too much force and in the ten history of the battle there was a perpetual problem with varying standards of helm construction and helm padding. Over the years the number of injuries crept up to the extent that the government Health & Safety Executive felt compelled to attend and forced rules on us all.
In the 1987 battle of Mortimer`s Cross I injured someone. Badly. It was a deliberate head-shot, which went wrong when my target unexpectidly stepped forwards onto the blow. Yes, it is possible to fracture a skull inside a great-helm. And yes, he did have padding. It was something that
I never forgot.
I have been seen three periods of re-enactors ( Dark-age, Plate-armour and English Civil War ) who have tried the head-shot (modified head-blow, as described earlier in this thread ). All of those groups experienced head-injury. All banned it as a result.
What the Auckland Norse do is fine. They are highly skilled. The rest of us are not so skilled and the potential for increased accidents remains if hazardous fighting tricks are allowed.

-as I said, try it on your WMA mates first. At worst, you may loose a friend. Try it during wild battle and someone may loose an eye or their life.

Stuart.

[Callum]