Missile Combat Rules

[Jesster]

whats the harm in some safety?

do you have to be correct every time?

"If your arrows are shattering, then either you are making crap arrows, or using a very high poundage bow at point-blank range."

is the precaution of a little bit of tape on your arrow going to upset your fun?

[Stuart]

As if a bit of tape is going to affect anything ! Clearly you don`t have any appreciable understanding of the science of archery.
Let`s bring this back to topic. There is no real danger in sensible combat archery, but the New Zealand SCA have spead alarmist stories and masqueraded their "concern" as a safety issue.
The rest of us have allowed this to creep through into NAAMA. It should be challanged. Now.
The other question is why are the SCA pushing an agenda on non SCA re-enactors ?
Control freaks or what ?

[Jesster]

im not SCA. i just agree with points that have been taken from them.

i also personally see the point that the tape might be useful because i have seen it in use in a slightly different context but the tape was very effective when it came to lessening possible spray of splinters.

you've probably never even met me but i dont appreciate you thinking me stupid just because my ideas differ to yours.

im not a control freak, i just prefer the safer option thanx.

[pmel018]

Hi Guys
whoa this has taken a bit of a nasty turn personally I couldn't give a hoot about tape on the arrows, you are already making compromises to include archery so does it matter?????????? On the other side of the arguement; do arrow shafts "explode" in showers of splinters??? The answer is no!!!! I have seen 100's loosed at re-enactments and not one shattered on impact. What does happen though is they get stood on and broken. This produces splinters all over the field that could be a hazard for anyone who ends up on the ground. The tape notion may... repeat may reduce this but you do need to address it as typically NAAMA battles are fought in quite small areasand this will mean that the combatants WILL be traversing the area of arrow fall. You can detail scurriers to retrieve the spent arrows and so keep the area clear(young non-combatant are good for this)but ineveitably some will be missed, trodden on and broken. If some tape save a particpant from a nasty injury then tape up those shafts.
Phil

[Stuart]

Thanks for that Phil. The myth is duly busted.

Now the point of going the full course of this thread was simply to explore the the ways by which people arrive at safety desisions and talk-up a danger when that danger does not actually exist.
It`s called the process of debate. At no time did I call anyone stupid
( indeed, I did not use that term, nor would I consider it ).
This debate began when I ventured the view that compulsory gorgets on archers are an impediment to accurate archery and offer no benefit to safety. The debate has run it`s course, and conclusions can be drawn from the various postings.
I respectfully suggest that the wearing of gorgets/neck protectors by archers at NAAMA should be downgraded to voluntary, not compulsory status. That way everybody will be happy.

[Bogue]

Hey Stuart,

I thought of starting this out nice and seemly but what the hell.

I don't care what you did to who where when how or why.
The simple fact of the matter is that, from my point of view, as limited as that may be, you are an unknown quantity and Angel and a mojority of the people voicing their opinions are not.

Here in NZ we are really just starting in to the combat archery scene in the metal weapons fraternity. Therefore I don't think it unreasonable that we be over cautious to begin with.

At this point in time I think Grayson has said it best

[Stuart]

I have nothing against the SCA as a WMA, indeed I have good friends in it. The issue, which you seem to have missed, is that on the SCA appears to have an agenda which they are trying to impose on non-SCA fighters.
During the course of these postings it is self-evident that certain SCA members are claiming to speak on safety matters. The grounds on which those safety matters were considered are now shown to be false.
I am just one of many people who consider that such an important debate takes place. It`s call freedom of speech.

Go back and read the thread. A discourse is taking place.
-and don`t shoot the messenger !

[Grayson]

The rules weren't imposed by the SCA but taken from their rules by someone who wants Combat archery involved in steel combat. I think for the time frame they had to sort them out before Naama this year, they went with what has already been sorted, Hopefully this doesn't mean that the rules won't change in years to come.

But in saying this those that make the rules have the final say on the day.
hopefully the amount of saftey rules that you deem unnecessary won't stop you from joining in at Naama

This has been a healthy debate without getting personal, good to see

[Colin]

[Stuart]

I thank Grayson & Colin for their observations.

To answer your question: Most arrow shafts in the UK are Ash. I buy mine from Quicks Archery. There are two grades. I go for the heavy ones. The same company also supplies rubber blunts for making flu-flus.
BTW, traditional flu-flus should be made with a spiral fletch. That gives sufficient spin and a parachute effect to slow them down.

[Chevalier]

[Stuart]

I can only refer to the previous posts which serve to highlight the need to revise the existing draft of the missile rules.

[Angel]

In NZ the vast majority are cedar - purchased from archery suppliers. Though we've had an influx of ramin via an aussie importer. The ones I have seen shatter (as in break into more than two pieces) have been cedar. I haven't seen enough of the ramin to comment on its integrity, but it's one of the woods that has been tested as being acceptable.

[Stuart]

An interesting point. Tropically grown cedar tends to be less dense than the slower growing European varity. Ramin is more sturdy and a bit better for durability. Arrow staves last longer.

[weekend_viking]

Hi all

Have been out of the country for a while, but hope to get back to NAAMA this year.

Anyway, combat archery. I've been doing it with the SCA, and occasionally with other groups, since 1994. I've seen a lot of broken arrows, which is why we tape them so that when it breaks, the arrow stays in one piece without splintering. The particular safety reason for this is because the most common break is as a result of punchblocks by fighters shields breaking the arrow as it passes them (so it is broken and still in flight) and arrows that break as they glance off armour. One can also note that because we habitually wear heavier armour than most steel fighters (because of the heavier impact of whaling on each other with large sticks), we can get away with _not_ using flu-flus, so I assume that our shafts are travelling a lot faster than fluflu's, even though shot with equivalent 30 pounders, which may account for the regularity with which I've seen arrows break on impact with armour and shield. (My combat arrows for SCA use are hand made Lawson's Cypress (=Port Orford Cedar) shafts, produced on approximations of medieval equipment, of NZ grown cypress, and are only fletched with two short (two inch by half inch) feathers, for comparison. They move a lot quicker than fluflus).

I don't mind the full face helm, gorget and mesh protection, even with the bother it causes to aiming, mainly because I'm already down an eye and a tooth, and have no illusions about the capability of even a fluflu moving slowly of taking out either an eye or a tooth. Having used my SCA combat blunts with a thirty pound bow for taking down rabbits and birds, I'm fairly certain that they'd probably be quite capable of delivering a very nasty crushing blow to the windpipe should you take one at short to moderate range without gorget, although a good camail may stop one.

With regards to wood density, I don't use Ramin or Tassie oak/ash because they're too dense, and seem to splinter more on breaking, although the Aussie SCA seem happy with them. (Ramin is apparently illegal these days, due to overlogging). The Port Orford Cedar most NZ SCA combat archers use is grown in the US, so definitely isn't tropical, and it's not a true cedar, either. The actual species is Lawson's Cypress, Chaemeocypress lawsoniana, and is grown in NZ as a decorative lumber tree, so it's quite possible to source the wood and make your own, as I've been doing for a decade or so now.

Cheers

Dr Zane