Justifying the name: medieval martial arts

[Joel of Old]

Essentially we are talking about the end result of thousands of years of blade wielding warfare, knowledge passed down from teacher to student, father to son, and soldier to soldier. The fact that these people actually put quill to parchment and recorded some of it does not mean that they came up with it. Augustus Escoffier did not write Escoffier's Cookbook, which is considered to be the bible of cookery, but instead gathered previously tried and true recipes. And I imagine the same to be true of the writers of the manuscripts etc that we are learning from.

But by no means should the journey be complete. Agreeing with Robbo here, however acknowledging Colin's POV that it would cease to be a 'Medieval' Martial Art once we apply anything that is not from that period, with the possible exception of our own interpretations.

However perhaps what is being referred to as a Medieval Martial Art should perhaps instead be called a Medieval Martial Form, as apparently the journey has finished, and art is the journey, not the result.

Joel of Old

[Colin]

Whoever stated that "they" came up with it? Fiore dei Liberi even lists some of the masters he has learnt from.

I am, however, intrigued about how a bunch of armchair critics will validate improvements over historical European martial arts. I know one way I could improve them and that's to use a 9mm. What will be your (plural) benchmark of validating these so-called improvements?

[Joel of Old]

Fair call. All I'm saying is that they picked up from where others had started and that we as a community can do the same... Of course we can't get the practical experience of cutting people up...

As for improvements to be made, i don't know... yet. And I'm not claiming that I will ever know or come up with anything new, however I'm advocating that the science of swordplay is not finished and if we could incorporate other MA's sword techniques then i'm sure there would be areas that could be improved.

But then it would cease to be 'Medieval European'.


BTW do you still use plastic bottles filled with water for test cutting?

[Vorschlag]

By the end of the fifteenth century swordsmanship was in decline, the art had already begun to lose its value due to the ever increasing difficulty of using it against armoured troops.

Previously it had been double edged, being usable both against armoured and unarmoured troops, this later failing meant the art was reducing to what would eventually become the duelling arts of the later periods.

The pass slowly gives way to the half pass and the lunge comes to full force, slowly but surely the art for the most part becomes linear and the geometry of the hand over that of the foot work and body becomes a gentleman’s securement.

Eventually the art becomes useless in any martial aspect, i.e. sports fencing, but is somewhat kept alive by the military who make use of a very watered down sword art similar to that of the duelling arts.

Make no mistake I prefer the arts of the seventeenth and eighteenth century but in a situation where my life or the life of those I care was at risk the medieval art I’ve studied (being of the Liechtenaur tradition) would be the first option.

Even with what limited understanding we have of the medieval systems due to their lack of continuation they are far more advanced than that of the traditions we know of, which eventually de-evolve into modern fencing.

The simplest way of recognising this is that the medieval arts train from grappling, to dagger, to single sword, to sword and buckler, to two handed sword, to spear to pollaxe and all the way back down.
This along with the fact that at least one (possibly more) of the masters who wrote upon the art stated it took half a life time to learn.

Where as I don’t dispute that people can discover techniques which may have been left out of the treatises (which are supposed by some only to be an advertisement for people to hire the writer anyway).
Or perhaps simply rediscover or re-interpret techniques from the treatises, I hold it as doubtful that people in the modern era can understand enough of any of the arts to improve upon them, considering that very few people train even a few hours everyday for any portion of their life in said art, let alone with period based equipment.

Perhaps a modern swordsmanship could be created using modern materials, rules, equipment and techniques, but it would not be an improvement upon a medieval art, it would be something rather different and no doubt with a different aim in mind.

[Joel of Old]

exactly what i was saying but with more words and better references.

[Colin]

[Joel of Old]

I think that's what my sempai was talking about what they've used in japan for lots of years. Except they have soaked mats wrapped around rice filled bamboo (to represent bone). Sounds to me like something a little better than plastic bottles, but a little more time consuming to make and expensive too.
I understand that MA supplies on Queen Street have something like it in stock however.

[Vorschlag]

Not sure how true it is but someone previously told me you can cut through those things with a blunt sabre or broadsword.

Wrapping them cloth might help though and the rice idea seems neat, of course if people wanted to test their skill properly in a more traditional method they'd go and take on a boar, so I guess i'll never do it properly.

[Joel of Old]

You could just get a pigs leg... good enough for CSI's, good enough for us.

[Vorschlag]

I was told they have a short life of usability due to the change in texture of flesh etc, im not a butcher though so i couldnt tell you.

It still wouldn't be usable in my case, but I have heard of at least one group in europe making use of animal corpses so it might be something for people to look into.

[griff]

and best of all you can make a nice stew afterwards.
perhaps some veges on skewers where you could slice your way down.
competions even, where you would see who could get the most slices out of a turnip say in a certain time frame.
im being silly now
i do think though that cutting a beast of some sort is the closest you would get to the real deal

[Vorschlag]

More the reason to keep breeding pits for the intellectually handicapped

[Carl]

At AS&SS training to day we got to cut up some bottles and everyone managed to cut a bottle in half in one or two swings.

it was a lot of fun and we inflicted terrible casualites on the armies of the Coke Bottle Overlords.

[Robbo]

PLease don't misunderstand me. I, too, have nothing but respect for those masters who left volumes for us to digest, study and learn from.

Let me me a bit more broad in my terms.

Earlier I mentioned a "great book" or some such. Obviously, there isn't one. We know that past masters had students of such great devotion, they studied their master's style exclusively. Blood was drawn and lives lost in these beliefs.

Today, we try to study the works of ALL the great masters. Why? Certainly not to improve on Silva's work...the man knew about that which he wrote! We study them to place them into our own style...a style specific to each and every one of us. Our aims are to become better swordsmen, axemen, metal wielding nutters.

In essence, by studying more than one master, by seeking to improve your interpretations on historical weaponry usage, you seek to improve your own personal ability. This is what I was refering to earlier. Basically, this is martial arts yes?

I don't pretend to know more than Talhoffer, Floss or Silva...but this doesn't preclude me from seeking to find the best for myself...again, I don't find this arrogance. The teachings of a master who prefered heavy strikes and solid blows don't work best for my body or mind set. The teachings of speed, accuracy and balance are more suited to me.

Gerard and I can read the same manuals, and still come away only utilising the movements and strikes that best suit us. Not arrogance, just smart. Our delvings into the past masters works have taught us slightly different things...his style and mine, but we both essentially learn from the same master/s.

I guess the argument then comes down to "martial arts", "enactment", or "re-enactment".

As for the comments on arm chair critics. Yup. Couldn't agree more. People who sit on the side lines, in fornt of their tv's or ensconced in their books and tell people who are out there/here trying to learn bug me too dude. Those folks need to get up, and come join in and find out what the rest of us are trying to do.

Btw, have we confirmed that Colin is going to be doing some lessons at NAAMA yet? I'm more and more interested to see what his interpretations have developed. It was looking highly interesting last time I saw anything.

Open minds folks, it's what it's all about. Let's all try and keep them

[Carl]