More interesting Headblow?

[Nathan]

Scott,
I'm not saying that it should be only for senior fighters, rather, senior fighters need to stand up and make sure that those fighting are trained enough to be safe are on the field. Ie if Joe Blow has been fighting non-headblow for x years decides to take to the headblow field then John Brown with y years of headblow checks that Joe has had suitable training.

There have been a number of instances where I have seen guys without headblow training take to the headblow field because it looks cool/no other fighting going on/whatever. Alot of these guys have not had correct training since their group doesn't do it/ they missed that session etc.

All I'm saying is that we ALL need to take some resposiblity to ensure safety on the field.

Oh and the wearing of mouth guards DOES reduce the chance of concussion. So does a suspension liner and correct padding. A dome of steel with a beanie underneath stops cuts - not concussive force of any magnitude.

[Bogue]

Hey Y'all

Now I've been really really good so far and stayed out of this somewhat repetitive discussion (Slagfest, argument).

Stuart has continously stated that headblow equals injury (This from overseas experience, easily accepted and non-contested).

Most of the posts by people doing combat (both NAAMA and HB or Armoured) here in NZ seem to disagree with his overseas experience with regard to combat here.

Some of those posting have been around since the dawn of reenactment combat in NZ and feel far more comfortable with HB than with the NAAMA non HB Touch of Death.
I will bow to their experience of what we do here, rather than what has happened overseas.

Stuart, HAVE YOU EVER FOUGHT HEADBLOW IN NZ UNDER NZ HB RULES?

If the answer is yes then your observations retain some credibility.
If the answer to my loudly worded question is No, well ...................

I enjoy headblow. I don't do it often enough really, but those times that I have participated in HB combat it has been a whole bucket of fun. Admittedly the number of people I am happy to fight HB with does not encompass all and sundry on the battle field and never will.

Much of what is contentious at the moment is the training that people receive. It is all about control, weapon control and target (HEAD) control.
That means not employing sufficient force to be unable to pull the blow safely (was once screamed at from a marshall in headblow at a jousting tourney "will you Just bloody hit him" as all my shots were stopping just above his head) and also not trying to jink your head out of the road when a head shot is incoming (that is how facial and neck/collarbone injuries happen). Knowing when you have been hit in the head shouldn't be a problem (sound, impact, you name it. Warboys helm buzzes just by his left ear when hit in the crown, that's how he knows he's been hit)

Many clubs that do fight exclusively HB (they train to the head and all other legal target areas) will not take the field for non HB unless they are using it for a warm up prior to HB commencing, as is their right and personally I don't blame them.

As for the flash of light from being hit too hard in the head, I get that every time I die and my head hits the ground but have never seen or felt it when being hit in the head with a weapon (actually there was one time with a barman and a baseball bat but that had nothing to do with this style of combat).

Decap strikes and any other HB differing from the crowning blow is, as you have said, fraught with potential problems and to be perfectly francis with you can't see the NAAMA staus quo changing.

As far as I am concerned (as little power as that has ) the WMA/HEMA styles of combat have safety standards that May prevent injury from horizontal and face thrusts, but NAAMA was designed to make it possible for everybody (having reached a standard of safety acceptable to their instructors) to fight on the field. I reserve the right to charge stark naked onto the field with nothing but helmet gloves and weapon should I so choose (don't worry it won't happen).

One thing I would like to point out.

[Scott]

[Carl]

you may not be coming right out and saying it, but you are not exactly boosting the support for it either, and your tone is very negative, and you keep missing the fact that we are talking about CONTROLLED blows to the head that is blows that would be no harder than a blow to the body, just like the "Norse Tap" as you call it. ( and if thats is what you call a Tap then wow dude )

If you read my comment as an personal attack then I apologise, but you do come across as the guy who has done it all, seen it all, been everywhere, met everyone, and it is pointless to disagree with you since you have much more experience and knowledge than anyone else.

Sorry maybe thats just me, i have met a lot of people like that in my life.

As for the head injuries, i have been knocked unconcious(and I mean lights out, good night nurse) five times in my life, three while doing MMA, once while playing Rugby, and once in a cycling accident, and i have experienced no ill effects. And I know what kind of damage a serious head injury can do(but that is another story)

I have also had a serious eye injury while sparring in non HB combat, blown a shoulder tendon while training for a comabt display and i am still carrying a back injury from a fall during a mass melee, and had my hands tenderised by different people over the years, but hey it is a contact sport, injuries are part of it, if you took the risk of injury away completely you would ruin it.

all you can do is train safe, fight safe, and be safe, by practicing Control, control, control.

At naama this year why dont you come and talk to us at Sword and Shield about your concerns and we will happily show you what we are doing with Head Blow HEMA.

[Gerard Kraay]

A good friend of mine reminded me today why forums are a very poor choice to discuss anything of any import as the message gets lost in the interference.
I was really just wanting to open up a discussion with other interested people about the best way to fight with head strikes of one sort or another, I did not want to get into a big debate over the merit of the idea.
So off line, let’s just get on and do it.

Gerard.

[Njal]

HA! So Bogue who are these people more highly skilled than the NZN?

[Bogue]

And Njall, unable to restrain himself, did in fact ask,

[Stuart]

I have insulted no-one, including those who so freely misrepresent me.

[Njal]

HA! Excellent just as I knew you couldn't restrain yourself answering it either, although maybe a biscuit is due it was well reserved.

I always agree when someone says we are highly skilled so yeah what ever the man who said we are skilled said. rock on

[Nathan]

personally, I to would have to say the Dragons, and MLH as groups and as inderviduals Haggis would be one of the most skilled people I have ever come across. Add to that Angel, Scotty, Justin......... Namely those without their heads up their a@$%!

[Joel of Old]

[Scott]

Well, while we're talking about headblow combat I'd like to say that I do consider a controlled thrust to the face to be extremely dangerous unless the person being hit is wearing steel mesh over their eyes (and it needs to be strong enough to absorb the impact without risk of breaking).

But that still leaves vertical blows, downright blows and horizontal strikes. Expanding to those would add four new vectors of attack to the head.

[Victorius]

It does seem odd that we leave these other forms out. When in mid ward, there's a lot further to travel to bring the sword arm up high enough to safely deliver an overhead crown strike (ie the only legal HB strike), when from that ward a quick strike to the side of the head with the false edge of the blade would deliver a quicker and more realistic strike.
Also spear fighting: a few weeks ago I was deploying a spear against several fighters. I must say it felt ridiculous to be jabbing away at their shins, but since they were using shields, it was the only safe way to make a kill. In reality, a spearman would have gone for thruists to the face. Now I doubt we would want that in HB, but what about a safer alternative, such as dropping the edge of the head onto the crown? It wouldn't have enough impact to truly do much damage (one of the reasons why I believe it wasn't allowed by some marshals some time back), but surely it's a safer alternative to a face thrust?
Again, bring in throat and solid face protection for HB, and things will be less risky.

[Nathan]

You do have to remember rotational leverage when thinking crown shot with poll weapons Victorius. I love my spear and Bariche but dropping either onto the top of a head would require high typically past the oppo's face and then carefully lowering it, massive amounts of control would be required. I would not think it plusible in massed combat but perhaps in single combat?

[Joel of Old]

For the level of safety we want, the 1600 newton fencing mesh has to be used. I've heard rumours about the weaker ones breaking.

For those who can, full face helms are an option, with additional eye protection - I believe they are called 'cut and thrust' helms.

Both of these options would allow for fully safe (assuming control) HBC.