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Scott
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 Posted: Thu Sep 20, 2007 10:53 am |
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| Ah but there you have the rub of it Joel - thrusting only works if everyone has headgear of that quality. I do not think that will happen - cut and thrust helms are ugly (and thus lack popularity) and while fencing masks are good vs thrusts they are weaker vs cuts. |
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Hawkwind™
Location: Auckland
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| Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2007 10:10 am |
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| Scott wrote: | | while fencing masks are good vs thrusts they are weaker vs cuts. |
Hi there,
forgive me for just butting in, but you might be interested to know this.
In my club (The Dawn Reivers) we have been using 1600 newton weight fencing masks, I have taken some good hits from longswords, and single swords, both cut and thrust, and they have always stood up to the test. To clarify, we do exersize a modicum of 'blow pulling' but we kind of let loose a bit more when we are wearing masks.
I think as long as people are prepared to say we are not actually fighting for our lives, and keep blow strength to a level that reflects that, fencing masks of 1600 weight should work out fine.
I have just realised the first thing people will ask is what sort of blow strength am I talking about, when we are training in shirts, I expect to go home with one or two light bruises, by the time I put on a padded jack (and we increase the strength of the blows a little), the only bruises I may receive are after a comparatively hard strike to the forearms, hopefully that gives you an idea of the strength we are using.
Sorry about the length of thispost, just wanted to be clear what I meant. |
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stephan
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| Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2007 11:52 am |
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i love the fenceing masks
they are safe and can take more damage than we can give in a controled enviroment where hits are advarge strengh for steel groups
dont let hawkwinds post lead you to think we hit hard we mostley fight with softer hits than most groups and when we put jacks and masks on then the hits become a little more solid/well placed than a advarge hit
they are lots of fun to use and create a more competive enviroment as you no longer need to wory about oppoents causing blades into faces etc
not that saftey falls just that if a oppeont puts their face in the the way they get what they derserve ......
stephan
order of the white rose |
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Grayson
Location: Croydon,Victoria Australia/ Wellington,NZ
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| Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2007 12:06 pm |
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| Quote: | | if a oppeont puts their face in the the way they get what they derserve |
Thats the wrong attitude to have Stephan, I hope you're meaning that people should realise that if the put parts of their body (not legal target zones) in harms way then they should expect to get hit there.
You'll always get people that move their head even if they know that it is Headblow combat.
_________________
Do not scorn a weak cub. He may become a brutal tiger |
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Carl
Location: Just beyond the firelight
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| Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2007 1:06 pm |
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| stephan wrote: |
if a oppeont puts their face in the the way they get what they derserve ......
stephan
order of the white rose |
would you have the same attitude if your opponent was not wearing a fencing mask?
or if you were fighting Non Head Blow combat?
this kind of attitude only fuels the arguments of the Nay-Sayers, and totally counteracts the whole idea of Safety.
After all what you are basically saying is that, I will be completely safe right up to the point that my opponent completely screws up, at which point, the responsibility to be safe is removed from me as he has done something dumb, and deserves what he gets.
wrong wrong wrong.
novice fighters do something dumb in combat a large percent of the time, how do they fit into your theory, Darwinist Elimination?
the point at which your opponent loses the plot and becomes a muppet is when your ability to be safe is tested the most, you need to be able to read thier actions, predict what is going to happen and correct your actions accordingly, this is one of the most important aspects of control.
Stephan you should know better.
Carl
_________________
It is not enough to say I will not be evil. Evil must be fought wherever it is found |
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Hawkwind™
Location: Auckland
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| Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2007 1:15 pm |
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| Quote: | | if a oppeont puts their face in the the way they get what they derserve ...... |
I wish to stress, that in no way does this comment represent the views of the Dawn Reivers, firstly we encourage some sort of basic spelling in our members, and secondly we value safety first just so that a new starter who "puts thier face in the the way", does not get hurt, and hopefully comes back. |
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Grayson
Location: Croydon,Victoria Australia/ Wellington,NZ
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| Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2007 3:29 pm |
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Having trained with the Dawn Reivers a couple of times while in Auckland for work, I know the level of saftey they achieve.
I realise the comment | Quote: | | if a oppeont puts their face in the the way they get what they derserve |
wasn't/isn't an indication of the clubs training (or spelling  )
As Carl said it is comments like that people take on board and it creates alot of negative feeling towards headblow, or even sword fighting in general no matter what the style is.
If someone get injured by putting thier head in the wrong place then the blame (if there is any) is on both combatants.
(Obviously blame will be placed on one or the other by people who weren't there, weren't involved or didn't see what happened )
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Do not scorn a weak cub. He may become a brutal tiger |
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Snorri the Mad
Location: la la land
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| Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2007 4:53 pm |
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| Quote: | | Darwinist Elimination |
i like the sound of that is there a following of this sort or are you just making it up
if its the first can i join if its the second is it viable to start one
(how does it work?) 
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they're coming, they're coming, they're coming to take me away ha ha he he ho ho those nice young men in their shiny white coats, they're coming to take me away, he he ha ha ho ho |
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Callum
Sponsor
Location: Upper Hutt
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| Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2007 6:26 pm |
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In Upper Hutt SEMA (formally Order of the Boar WMA) we use the 1600 Newton fencing masks with a standard padding arming cap underneath. We 'free assault' (spar) "medium contact" - e.g. we don't deliver full power blows once we've penetrated the opponent's defence as we "pull" the blow just prior to impact. But there is still a fair amount of power transferred as we only score on a full arm movement. We have had no problems with either wasters or steel weapons with this level of head protection and a gambeson or similar.
However I do recommend a gorget of some sort as the standard fencing mask bibs offer very little protection from a face trust that goes a bit low.
With your head as a target you do tend to be aware of it more, and take more care to avoid being hit there than in non head blow. Also we do not score unless you can hit and disengage out of distance before your opponent can hit you. This helps avoid the "gunslinger" mentality (whereby it doesn't matter if you get hit providing you hit first) and people are free assaulting with more care and control because of this.
_________________
Callum Forbes
Order of the Boar - www.jousting.co.nz
Order of the Boar Historical Foot Combat -
www.hapkido.org.nz/upperhutt.html |
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Carl
Location: Just beyond the firelight
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| Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2007 8:47 pm |
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| Snorri the Mad wrote: | | Quote: | | Darwinist Elimination |
if its the first can i join if its the second is it viable to start one
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unfortunately you would be in the first Cull  sorry
| Hawkwind wrote: | | firstly we encourage some sort of basic spelling in our members, |
Hey guys.... his Keyboard is broken.... the head nut is loose.
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It is not enough to say I will not be evil. Evil must be fought wherever it is found |
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Joel of Old
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| Posted: Sun Sep 23, 2007 9:55 pm |
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Then get a new goddamn keyboard... I'm English and it really hurts me to read Stephan's posts.
They cost $20 for Pete's sake... nay not for Pete's, for mine!
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When they hit you, just smile back with broken teeth and spit them in their face. |
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Gerard Kraay
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| Posted: Sun Sep 23, 2007 10:27 pm |
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| Joel of Old wrote: | Then get a new goddamn keyboard... I'm English and it really hurts me to read Stephan's posts.
They cost $20 for Pete's sake... nay not for Pete's, for mine! |
Yea, it's culturally insensitive.
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"The Dragon made me do it." |
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adrianf
Location: palmerston north
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| Posted: Sun Sep 23, 2007 10:40 pm |
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to be honest the face thrusts would be a big worry, especially with a spear. thats a lot of kinetic energy to the front of the head, and (IMHO) a great risk of major problems.
one bad facial thrust in a public display...... 
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surrender to temptation, you never know when it will come your way again |
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Vorschlag
Location: Auckland
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| Posted: Sun Sep 23, 2007 10:40 pm |
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But come on guys be nice, he enjoys holding 'intellgent' conversation with you...
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i totally agree, you have taken my point a step futher ,thanks
it is so good to know people who understand these basic facts of fighting !
intellgent converstion is always welcome
reguards stephan
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On the other side of things he may have dyslexia so it may not be fair to pick on him for it, still Microsoft word does have a spell-check function.
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On five words hinge the entire art of the sword, in and out of armour, on horse and on foot. |
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Inigo
Location: Auckland
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| Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 10:14 am |
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If you make a helm out of thick enough steel with enough padding you can protect against even quite heavy blows. 16 gauge spun tops oven a light padded coif won't stop a hard blow, but a 12 gauge hand dished helmet with half an inch of proper padding can soak up a lot of force. Likewise, a well attached mail aventail with a padded drape behind it can protect the throat and neck. Perforated steel plate can be used for visors that will stop even a serious thrust.
| Stuart wrote: | | Again & again. If you allow this to happen here someone wil get seriously hurt and you run a risk that the authorities will feel compelled to regulate re-enactment. |
If this was true, motor racing and horse riding would have been be banned years ago. I often hear people saying "if someone gets hurt, we won't be allowed to fight any more". I don't believe this is true. Re-enactment combat is safer than rugby.
| Stuart wrote: | | Deaths have occured in England on the re-enactment battlefield and there have been call to restrict the activity. Scotland is enacting new laws to prohibit the general ownership of Swords. In England government-run Heath & Safety ( HOS ) have started to take the fun out of re-enactment. Do you want that to happen here ?? |
I don't believe that this is happening because a few medievalists hurt each other. This is happening because the UK government is out of control legislating against everything that doesn't generate tax revenue for themselves.
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A book may be able to teach you something of fighting, but it can't cover your back when the shield wall breaks up! |
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