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Scott
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 Posted: Fri Sep 28, 2007 2:18 pm |
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| Very well, I have not seen SCA rapier & I should clarify that I was talking about medieval sword play. |
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Colin
Location: Wellington
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| Posted: Fri Sep 28, 2007 2:25 pm |
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So what in your eyes does SCA "medieval sword play" resemble in terms of "...grounded in historically documented styles..."
I'm curious, since in my eyes it doesn't duplicate any. (That's not to imply it isn't fun for its participants or whatever). I've heard of stories where some in the SCA have started putting historically documented styles into their combat, but I've personally never witnessed them.
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The person who writes for fools is always sure of a large audience.
- Arthur Schopenhauer
See http://www.swordsmanship.co.nz/ |
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Scott
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| Posted: Fri Sep 28, 2007 2:34 pm |
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Well for starters I'm not saying that SCA combat is WMA dressed up in plate armour with wooden swords, so if you're thinking I'm taking a jab at either it or WMA then please rest assured this is not the case.
I was merely musing on my own observations (and it has been a long time since I've seen SCA combat so I could be wildly off the mark, but here goes). When I compare SCA heavy combat to the old Sword & Shield syllabus and to Silver, it has much more in common with Silver than with stage fighting.
We could go into a discussion here about how it's all false time anyway and the weight of the weapons is out so it's not an accurate representation of real combat - but I don't think you'd get many people disagreeing with you.
So in summary, I'm not trying to say that SCA heavy combat is anything like WMA. I am trying to say that in my opinion SCA heavy combat has the most holistic integration of the various factors which this hobby has to offer.
So if I presented the information incorrectly, I apologise. I'm not trying to sell the SCA, talk down anyone else, or run for Prime Minister here. I'm just postulating an opinion, one which I am not trying to present as gospel fact.
(So don't expect me to cite any sources  )
- Scott |
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Njal
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
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| Posted: Fri Sep 28, 2007 3:43 pm |
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I think you'll find that Norse women have the right the vote. Women’s rights during the Viking Age are generally recognized as being greater than for the next 900 years and to have not reached the same level until late last century.
But the thing that really keeps the SCA going is the large number of very talented women that run the show. Unlike the Norsemen's "no penis - no vote" policy, we have positive discrimination with a very romantic view of how women should be treated.
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Victorius
Location: IMPERIVM ROMANA: The Roman club with a Living History focus.New Roman Club
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| Posted: Fri Sep 28, 2007 4:02 pm |
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| Scott wrote: | Interesting. I'd expect to see leg wounds in combat, of course. I'm not denying that leg wounds happen, nor am I denying that fighters might aim at the leg directly...
So in summary, I'm not denying that leg shots exist. I certainly won't deny they work. I do think they are overstated in validity by the sport fighting which NAAMA combat is based on, but that is my personal opinion based on the time I have spent learning NAAMA combat and studying historically sourced styles . |
NAAMA may be more akin to sport fighting than to a re-enaction of proper combat in Ancient and Medieval Wars, so we can look at Gladiator fighting as an ancient method that utilised leg shots to a quite a high degree. Many depictions of gladiators show quite extensive lower-leg protection, suggesting a high degree of leg shots. Furthermore, bone analysis of skeletal remains from the gladiator graveyard at Ephesos showed injuries and regrowth on leg bones, thus providing archaeological proof of the use of leg strikes.
What is significant here is that like our modern NAAMA fighting, which seeks to make a strike - any strike, whether the strike would have been lethal or not if used full force with a sharp - Gladiators also sought to make strikes that were not in themselves lethal or incapacitating. Many of the weapons used would not have been lethal (four-pronged weapons without enough penetrating depth to be lethal for instance, merely to cause a minor injury and spurt a lot of blood for show).
So leg shots were quite a valid and used extensively.
However, headshots were used too. The unhelmeted Retarius (the trident and net guy) had a plate on his weapon arm that protected against decapitation blows, and the other grades had full-face helmets with throat protection that protected against thrusts to the face.
The most significant thing about all of this is that Gladiators did NOT fight to the death, they were not aiming to KILL their opponents, merely make blood-spurting strikes upon them. The gladiator graveyard showed that most of the men buried there recovered from large numbers of non-serious incapacitating wounds, and that their general life expectancy was only FIVE YEARS on average less than that of the general population.
As we are not aiming to kill our opponents, perhaps we should take a leaf from the Gladiator book and consider that potentially non-lethal strikes should have as much validity as potentially lethal ones.
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VICTORIVS, BA.MA.HONS.I, IMPERIVM. ROMANA |
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Gerard Kraay
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| Posted: Fri Sep 28, 2007 4:14 pm |
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A strike to the crown of the head with control is not lethal and is safe. The issue arises that when the head is ignored a large percentage of accurate technique is negated. The issue relating to leg strikes is a simple philosophy that is geometrically sound; if someone attacks your legs, strike them in the head. Naturally it will not always work, but it is a sound principle to work from.
GK
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"The Dragon made me do it." |
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Scott
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| Posted: Fri Sep 28, 2007 4:19 pm |
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| Victorius wrote: | | As we are not aiming to kill our opponents, perhaps we should take a leaf from the Gladiator book and consider that potentially non-lethal strikes should have as much validity as potentially lethal ones. |
That was an excellent post, thank you. Much food for thought.
It does beg the question though:
Is NAAMA combat a type of sport fighting, as akin to true combat as modern sport fencing is to swordplay? Perhaps more importantly, is that where people want it to be? |
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Inigo
Location: Auckland
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| Posted: Fri Sep 28, 2007 5:43 pm |
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| Njal wrote: | | ...For example it is written in our constitution that only MALES can 'chairperson' the NZNLHS. ... No women in the Felag.,,. |
| Njal wrote: | | ...I think you'll find that Norse women have the right the vote. Women’s rights during the Viking Age are generally recognized as being greater than for the next 900 years and to have not reached the same level until late last century... |
I can't make these work together. Please explain?
_________________
A book may be able to teach you something of fighting, but it can't cover your back when the shield wall breaks up! |
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Bogue
Sponsor
Location: Palmy
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| Posted: Fri Sep 28, 2007 6:43 pm Sport fighting |
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And Scott did say
| Quote: | | Is NAAMA combat a type of sport fighting, as akin to true combat as modern sport fencing is to swordplay? |
My doctor recently told me I have to lose 15kg and get some excercise.
I told him about what I have done as a hobby and he categorically said that this type of sport-fighting is good for cardiovascular and weight loss.
Damn s'pose I'll have to get fit now.
Cheers
Bogue |
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Chevalier
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| Posted: Sat Sep 29, 2007 12:50 pm Real Gladiator Training and Fights |
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Ah, what a bloody good documentary that was.. if anyone taped it, it might be worth sharing at NAAMA? |
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adrianf
Location: palmerston north
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| Posted: Sat Sep 29, 2007 10:03 pm |
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so after all these posts are we any closer to deciding to incorporate more head blow?
realistically it would be pretty easy to incorporate the 12 o'clock shot, as it just opens up a new strike zone, but the idea of facial thrusts would basically require everyone with an open face helm to buy a new helm.
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surrender to temptation, you never know when it will come your way again |
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conal
Site Admin
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| Posted: Sat Sep 29, 2007 10:41 pm |
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Face thrust are a stoopid idea interclub.
Stoopid stoopid stoopid |
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Vorschlag
Location: Auckland
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| Posted: Sat Sep 29, 2007 11:50 pm |
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Not that I participate in any re-enactment club, but face thrusts require allot of protection for the face, eyes and throat.
A full visor still risks eye shots, a coif or aventail alone still risk the collapsing of the wind pipe.
Most people are likely not interesting in increasing equipment and protection standards but that's pretty much the only way to produce safer more realistic combat rules.
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On five words hinge the entire art of the sword, in and out of armour, on horse and on foot. |
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Stuart
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| Posted: Sun Sep 30, 2007 10:32 am |
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Re-enactment is just fine the way it is. No face-thrusts.
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A Dane Axe beats two aces anytime. |
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Gerard Kraay
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| Posted: Sun Sep 30, 2007 7:46 pm |
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I vote for all fighting having a helm requirement and a single strike to the crown of the head.
Moving away from any fighting where there are no head strikes to the crown of the head and banning any fighting with out helms full stop at NAAMA events, with the exception of Rapier which requires a fencing mask.
Transition this in over the next year, as one year is plenty of time to buy a helm.
My opinion, don’t yell at me too much 
Gerard
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"The Dragon made me do it." |
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