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Inigo
Location: Auckland
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 Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2007 6:44 pm |
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Before I start, I'll say I'm not trying to annoy people and that perhaps I'm misunderstanding the rules for light archery.
The rules say:
"Volley fire constitutes missiles which will arc through the air with at least a 30 degree vertical inclination from the launcher. Missiles must not be fired with a flat trajectory at any time during light missile combat."
Does this mean a minimum of 30 degrees from horizontal? Or, is it a maximum of 30 degrees from vertical? Or, does it mean you can shoot a shaft at someone who is close, if you fire on a downwards angle of 30 degrees from horizontal? I'm sorry if I come across as a numb nut here.
Under "Minimum and Maximum Range" it says:
"The minimum range for any projectile, except javelins, is 5 meters."
is this light archery combat or heavy?
I'm not sure what the intent is here. If I loose an arrow at an upward angle of 30 degrees from horizontal, I can't possibly hit someone at a distance of 5m unless they're about 5m tall or they're on a fort wall. Is that the plan? That we can shoot up or down from fort walls, but not on the flat.
Or, is the intent is that we only target people with a falling shaft for light archery?
Thanks in anticipation!
_________________
A book may be able to teach you something of fighting, but it can't cover your back when the shield wall breaks up! |
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Grayson
Location: Croydon,Victoria Australia/ Wellington,NZ
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| Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2007 6:57 pm WTF |
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| Quote: | | Think I'll experiment with longer draws anyway. I've heard they keep your legs warmer as well. |
LOL 
_________________
Do not scorn a weak cub. He may become a brutal tiger |
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Víkarr
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| Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2007 8:51 pm |
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| NigelT wrote: | | The revision is around javelin use. |
Nigel, very cool javelin diagram - will definately be making some and good to see that they have to still be hand launched.
Are javelins to be used as per 'heavy' and 'light' missile combat rules? That is direct throwing for heavy and lobbed throwing for light? Or can they be thrown direct regardless? |
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NigelT
Site Admin
Location: Wellington
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| Posted: Tue Oct 09, 2007 9:29 am |
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| Víkarr wrote: | | can they be thrown direct regardless? |
Víkarr, they can be thrown direct for either. However, there is a certain amount of owness going back onto javelin makers here. If your javelin has a large rubber walking stick knob on it and no padding then we're not going to let you throw direct and will be enforcing the 5m rule.
This might prove to be difficult to enforce and there will no doubt be people who will argue the finer points and complain about there being no quantifyable rules here, but it comes down to this - we would like to see javelins used extensively because we believe they are a very versatile weapon. However people need to remember that some people are going to be wearing very little armour and a normal nasal. You need to pad your javelins enough that a hit to the face won't be dangerous and a hit to the body, especially joints and spine won't be dangerous. This is subjective, but if you're in doubt, put more padding on it.
Does that help? We'll tell you at weapons check whether we think your javelin can be used in the way or if it's to be restricted to lobbing from 5m+.
Nigel |
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NigelT
Site Admin
Location: Wellington
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| Posted: Tue Oct 09, 2007 9:54 am |
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| Inigo wrote: | | The rules say...(insert lots of questions here)...Thanks in anticipation! |
OK, I'll try and answer all of your questions, but in one broad sweep.
When I wrote the rules I was trying to be precise enough that people would get an idea of what I meant, but not so precise that it was a water-tight legal document. The intent of the section of rules relating to lobbing and minumin range is as follows:
The 5m rule and exeption to javelins applies to both light and heavy. I fully appreciate that it's next to impossible to lob a shot at someone 5m away. That's one of the shortcomings of light combat archery, and another good reason to upgrade your kit so you can do direct shots with heavy combat archery. The light combat archery won't be a very effective method of killing the opposition for many obvious reasons, but it does look very impressive and if enough arrows are in the air at once it'll both stop the enemy doing anything else for a few seconds and it might kill a few infantrymen.
When I say 30 degrees, I'm talking about aiming horizontally then lifting your bow upwards 30 degrees. I'm not going to be standing on the field with a sextant checking it. The point is that your arrows final speed when it hits it's target is more about gravity than the initial power of your bow. During an arrows flight it should use up the bows power in it's upwards movement and use gravity to bring it back to earth. If you want to shoot your arrow straight up and then get out of the way as it comes down, that's your call. What I don't want to see if people firing low or flat trajectory shots, especially over short distances where that shot could hit someone in the face with enough force to do damage. Light combat archery doesn't require mesh visors remember.
When it comes to light combat archery and forts, hills, trees, etc. If you have to shoot up at someone and can't really safely lob a shot then you shouldn't be shooting at all. Put down your bow and use a javelin. If you're shooting down onto someone it should be easy to lob a shot provided they are far enough away.
Keep in mind to that distance is important. If your target is close it's more important to lob the shot than if they are further away. The combat arrows that I'm making can be fired maybe 40 meters if you're lucky. If your target is at 30m you can do a flat trajectory shot at them and not hurt them because the arrow has slowed down so much. However, it's far too complex to try and teach or remember in battle, so we're simply saying that you need to lob every shot in light combat archery. If it's not a safe shot, don't fire it.
Remember also that all of these shots are announced.
Now, for heavy combat archery, all that changes. The 5m rule still applies, but all shots can be straight shots and don't need to be announced.
There is one very important thing to rememeber when we're playing in the fort of on hills etc. You should never shoot up at someone where there is a chance your arrow could go under their helmet and over their gorget, such as would be the case from shooting up at someone from enough of an angle. I gave 30 degrees again as an example in the rules because that's a reasonably normal overlap angle. When someone is in one of the towers in the NAAMA 2007 fort, they can be shot at from 45 degrees below while still being 5m away, which is potentially dangerous. If you're in the tower you need to be aware of this and keep looking down and not up. If you're on the ground keep this in mind and away don't take the shot if it's not safe to do so.
Does that answer your questions? I could be that we need to clarify the rules, but we'll cover this in the combat archery briefing at NAAMA on Saturday anyway.
Nigel |
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Inigo
Location: Auckland
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| Posted: Tue Oct 09, 2007 10:10 am |
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Thanks.
_________________
A book may be able to teach you something of fighting, but it can't cover your back when the shield wall breaks up! |
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Stuart
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| Posted: Tue Oct 09, 2007 9:30 pm |
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I can appreciate the reason for the rules, but it think we have too many of them. There is a view that complexity does not lead to practicality.
Discuss that at length, or not as the case may be...
On another matter: For the last three weeks we have been running an experiment in Auckland. European style combat archery.
We have shot hundred of rounds at static and moving targets ( many thanks to the Auckland Norse ) and tested a considerable number of infantry tactics. As with Nigel`s observations, the max` range is less than 50 meters, and accuracy with high altitude "clout" shots is near impossible. All other shots require some degree of elevation. Direct "line-of-sight" shots become possible at less than 20 meters. 15 meters is about right.
For the record we are using 28 inch flu-flu arrows from a 30 pound bow.
All arrows were linseed oiled and no arrows broke or splintered. ( one was trodden on and the other was attacked by a sword, well, it was Snorri the Mad...)
We did not target anything higher than solar plexes/lower chest and arrow velocity was minimal at anything other than close range. So no head shots.
No arrows were seen to deflect from shields or trees. The rubber blunt tends to " stick " to anything it hits and no energy remains for anything other than a drop to the ground.
The arrows move slowly. At long and intermediate ranges many infantry did not realise they had been hit. That may have implications for NAAMA combat scoring.
Eye protection ( safety specs ) is probibly a good option for the terrified, but after witnessing the low power of our bows, the Auckland Norse thought that helmets were sufficient protection. No-one was struck in the neck and all infantry seem to instinctivly lower helms when arrow were flying. Thus, the throat was protected.
Mass volley fire " nock, draw, loose ".. produced a better concentration of arrows over a target and wins my vote for hitting an infantry formation.
We shot quickly. A full quiver of 24 arrows does not last long in combat. We had to recycle our shots rapidly. I doubt if the infantry battle will pause while the archers collect and check each spent arrow...
We are not calling this style of shooting "light" or "heavy". It`s more a case of "medium" combat archery. It also has the simplicty of having minimal rules.
Try it in your groups and see what you think.
_________________
A Dane Axe beats two aces anytime. |
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Patch
Location: Auckland
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| Posted: Tue Oct 09, 2007 11:10 pm |
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| Quote: | I've made a slight revision to the missile combat rules. The one attached here should be considered the final version applicable to NAAMA 2007.
The revision is around javelin use. After some discussion and testing last weekend we've decided to excempt javelins from the 5 meter minimum rule and the requirement to be lobbed. We are doing this to help fill the gap between 5m and spear range. A well padded javelin when thrown sensibly is reasonably safe to use with normal NAAMA armour - however javelins should be well padded to qualify for this exemption. A solid rubber blunted javelin without additional soft padding should not be used in this way and will have the same rules applied as for arrows. |
Just a point, when Javelins were being used previously at NAAMA events they were fantastic fun when used to lob into the ranks, nothing like a bit of low speed unexpected deaths coming out on nowhere to spice up the tactical situation. However, it soon became abundantly apparent that the most effective use of them was to use them as a extra long spear - firing a direct shot into your opponents face from as little as one to two and a half meters away. This was so un-fun that javelins got dropped by the next NAAMA, not by any overt decision but because everyone remembered how annoying, painful and crap the experience was. At least that is how I remember the events. I like the lob into combat rule, and I suspect that it promotes good game-play.
Just a thought.
-Patch. |
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NigelT
Site Admin
Location: Wellington
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| Posted: Wed Oct 10, 2007 9:28 am |
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| Stuart wrote: | | There is a view that complexity does not lead to practicality.... For the last three weeks we have been running an experiment in Auckland. |
Hi Stuart,
Some valid points there. Let me talk to a few of them, and none of this is meant as a personal attack:
The linseed oil thing - I agree that oiling your shafts will make your shafts stronger and more flexible, but saying it removes the need for taping is a bit like saying that learning to drive better will mean you don't need a seat belt. There is still value in it and I'm sure that the one in one hundred people who need it will really appreciate it when they do.
Carefully targetting the midsection is all well and good if you're a good archer and you always keep your cool in battle. This is not going to be the case for everyone however. And much like other NAAMA combat, we need to cater to the lowest common denominator to a certain extent.
Arrow deflection does happen, I've spoken to people with first hand experience of this.
No offence to the Auckland Norse, but they've already extensively boasted on this forum about how they are happy to take all sorts of damage and hard hits in battle and accept it as normal. An endorsement from them as to the need for eye protection etc doesn't carry too much weight with me sorry. You're also not the only group that's been carrying out tests - others have not had eye injuries but acknowledge the need for reasonable protection. Let me ask you this - have you done shatter tests on your eye protection to make sure your safety glasses will actually stop an arrow fired at full speed from 5m? Most readily available safety glasses are designed to stop sparks and wood chips, not relatively heavy fast moving arrows.
I agree with you regarding mass volleys being the only way to hit anything when lobbing - that's why we want to get as many archers on the field as we can in the light combat archery battles.
With the fort battles, there will be opportunity to recycle arrows, but only once the battle has ended (could be half an hour or longer), so the archers are not going to be firing constantly - more likely repeated volleys at the start of the battle before troops engage the fort directly.
I suspect that your general comments on us being over cautious are right, but that said, I'd prefer to go that way for at least the first NAAMA to make sure we've got it sorted before setting things back by getting injuries. I'd like to run it this way this year and then gather feedback afterwards. Beyond NAAMA I'd like to gather all of your comments and other peoples from NAAMA and outside and revise the rules (and perhaps simplify) as needed - there's no point in having a static document if it's not appropriate. Given how much work has gone into it to get to 9 days out from NAAMA it's probably good enough for now. Let's revisit it afterwards.
Another very good reason (although some may not see it as such) for making our arrows to this specification is that we are 100% compatable with the SCA archery rules on arrows. This means that you can take your arrows and wander down to the SCA and play with them - there are one or two armour requirments that you'll need but as I understand it if you've got the NAAMA heavy missile combat armour sorted then it only requires one or two other readily attainable items and you're set. It also means that the SCA can come play with us provided they use flu-flus and not speed blunts - their armour is already up to spec. This effectively means that as it stands we've got a much larger body of potential combat archers in this country than just those at NAAMA. Imagine having 40 archers loosing at once instead of just 20. I believe their arrow specs are good anyway, so why not reap the benefits of staying compatable. Please note - I am not a member of the SCA and I have no vested interest or agenda regarding the SCA.
The issue of not feeling lobbed arrows has been raised here too. I think we'll just have to see how it goes at NAAMA on this one - hitting harder doesn't seem to be a sensible remedy.
Stuart - I'm hoping that you'll be sending down a number of combat archers with all those arrows you've been making to NAAMA? We're looking forward to having your lot here.
Cheers,
Nigel |
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NigelT
Site Admin
Location: Wellington
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| Posted: Wed Oct 10, 2007 9:52 am |
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| Patch wrote: | | ...firing a direct shot into your opponents face from as little as one to two and a half meters away. This was so un-fun that javelins got dropped by the next NAAMA, not by any overt decision but because everyone remembered how annoying, painful and crap the experience was. |
Hi Patch,
I hear what you're saying. We've been a little undecided on what to do with javelins, hence the last change in the rules. The well padded ones we were using last weekend were fantastic - and unless you're an olympic javelin thrower you're probably not going to be able to do anyone any damage with one. We could see tremendous value in the fort battle with using them in the 2 to 5m zone where you can't use archery and you can't reach with a spear. It would seem silly that the enemy can hang about outside your walls in this space quite safely in full view.
I can see how being repeatedly hit in the face with a javelin at short range would be very unpleasant.
I think rather than revising the zero-range ammendement, I'd like to see better guidelines about the use of javelins. If you have any thoughts on this I'd love to hear them.
There are three things that'll probably happen with javelins that might help the situation.
(1) With the fort battle we probably won't be recycling projectiles of any sort during the battle. So once an arrow has been fired or a javelin thrown, it is out of the game until the game ends. This will mean that the number of times you'll be hit is limited to the number of javelins people have in their arsenal, and won't be an indefinite supply.
(2) Valid target areas for javelins, arrows, etc are the same as for melee combat, sort of. You shouldn't be targetting the spine or joints but they are counted as hits all the same. The head is included in this - it's a valid kill but is discouraged as a target, if that makes sense
(3) Not every battle will include missiles, so you're not going to be suffering through badly used javelins all day. I'm a bit biased for obvious reasons, but I'd like to see missiles used in perhaps half of the battles at NAAMA. We'll see how things go though, we might have to make some running alterations on the javelin rule once we get there.
I suspect that when you see that first volley of 20 arrows coming at you that you might forget all about the javelins however. It's an awesome sight and it's going to dramatically change the way we play this game.
Nigel |
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NigelT
Site Admin
Location: Wellington
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| Posted: Wed Oct 10, 2007 9:53 am |
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This is a comment for every club -
As a club it would be VERY useful to start thinking about how the presence of archers, javelins, and siege is going to change how you play the game. Even if you don't yet have combat archery in your club, you should be thinking about how to fight a battle where it's being used, either for or against you. For example, if there's a siege engine on the field against you, are you better to try and take it out or avoid it while you fight other battles - do you need to start thinking about formations a bit more, do you need seperate units with different objectives sorted out before the battle starts. I think it's going to mean people need to work more as a group and less as a collection of individuals. The group that has air-supremacy as well as group-supremacy will have a huge advantage over groups that discount ariel attack as nothing to worry about.
Nigel |
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conal
Site Admin
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| Posted: Wed Oct 10, 2007 10:32 am |
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Everyone okay with flour as a substitue for Fire in the Byzantine fire thrower?
Option two is red yellow and orange jelly... which would be kinda firey looking and sticky... more acurate historically I guess... in a postmodern context.
Just thought I'd check before we hosed them off the walls.
Happy happy, joy joy. |
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Stuart
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| Posted: Wed Oct 10, 2007 10:52 am |
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Hi Nigel,
Thanks for the feedback. I am not suggesting that we change any rules this close to the big show.
I remain open to all possibilities and regard the evolution of combat archery as a work in progress.
yes, I have done shatter tests on industry standard safety specs.
On another topic, jelly for greek fire ? Whats wrong with napalm !
_________________
A Dane Axe beats two aces anytime. |
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NigelT
Site Admin
Location: Wellington
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| Posted: Wed Oct 10, 2007 12:55 pm |
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My vote is for flour... it'll make a fantastic cloud when it hits. Imagine half a dozen artillery flour bombs landing at the same time... now that would be great.
I don't think we should be using it for every battle, but I'm going to see if we can do it for at least one of the fort battles.
Darryl or Kath if you're reading this... any thoughts?
Nigel
PS: I was wondering about water bombs... but I don't think they'd go very well with flour bombs, unless we also use sugar bombs, and perhaps some cocoa and cinemon bombs... and then bombard with greek fire for 20 minutes.... and I have no idea what that would make. |
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NigelT
Site Admin
Location: Wellington
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| Posted: Wed Oct 10, 2007 1:04 pm |
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| Stuart wrote: | | I have done shatter tests on industry standard safety specs. |
Excellent! Good to know that someone has. Stuart, just so I get an idea of numbers, how many archers from Auckland are going to be participating in combat archery that you know of, how many of those are going to be doing heavy archery, and of those how many have mesh visors and how many are wanting to use safety glasses?
There seems to be a trend towards safety glasses. I'm hesitant about this, but will probably allow it as long as the glasses are sturdy and can't be knocked off by side shots (will depend on your helmet design). If you've got a normal nasal and no other face protection other than safety glasses, you need to email me ASAP - we're not intending to allow this, so you need to get in touch and make your case before you get to camp.
Nigel |
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