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Kath
Location: Naki
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 Posted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 8:03 pm |
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...and before this degenerates into a huge b*tchfight bringing up who damaged whom.....(especially the week before NAAMA when everyones been playing in the gathering darkness sandpit so nicely of late).....
I am wondering as to what Indigo's motive was in instigating this discussion?
We've all seen injuries, or taken some heavy bruising or worse.
I dont think that re-airing such matters in a public forum like this is particularly wise for a number of reasons for example: rehashes old sh*t that deserves to stay buried, openly discloses to public some of the (unfortunate) incident that have happened over the past 10+ years in NZ (or out) involving this game/sport we play, nad will very quickly highlight a number of shortcomings of which I've bitch*d on about at length.
Indigo - if there was a point you were wanting to make (rather than lets share war stories) best you just make it......(or have I made it for you????)
K |
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Inigo
Location: Auckland
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| Posted: Fri Oct 12, 2007 9:27 am |
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I'm just interested to see if groups change how they approach what they're doing if people are injured. Little things like ensuring that files and sandpaper are available to keep the weapons burr free, requiring armour on areas that are frequently injured or revoking fighting privileges.
While the topic was always going to turn into a bit of a "no shit, there I was..." pissing contest, I'm more interested in what groups have done AFTER and injury to try and reduce the chance of a repeat.
_________________
A book may be able to teach you something of fighting, but it can't cover your back when the shield wall breaks up! |
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Carl
Location: Just beyond the firelight
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| Posted: Fri Oct 12, 2007 9:44 am |
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| Inigo wrote: | | . Little things like ensuring that files and sandpaper are available to keep the weapons burr free, |
personally this has always been a habitual thing , i check my sword every time i draw it from its scabbard and take care of any burrs that crop up.
| Inigo wrote: | | requiring armour on areas that are frequently injured or revoking fighting privileges. |
Most of my worst injuries are on the hands and we wear gloves already, head injuries have always been one offs and accidental.
Mostly we get bruises or small nicks or hematomas, but in sword and shield if there was a head injury or serious injury at training Steve would come down like an avenging lord and sort it out PDQ, which in itself was a deterrent.
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It is not enough to say I will not be evil. Evil must be fought wherever it is found |
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Gerard Kraay
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| Posted: Fri Oct 12, 2007 12:45 pm |
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| Inigo wrote: | I'm just interested to see if groups change how they approach what they're doing if people are injured. Little things like ensuring that files and sandpaper are available to keep the weapons burr free, requiring armour on areas that are frequently injured or revoking fighting privileges.
While the topic was always going to turn into a bit of a "no shit, there I was..." pissing contest, I'm more interested in what groups have done AFTER and injury to try and reduce the chance of a repeat. |
I would be interested in hearing from you, what the SCA and you have done when you have had injuries too?
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"The Dragon made me do it." |
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Inigo
Location: Auckland
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| Posted: Fri Oct 12, 2007 2:21 pm |
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| blackcrow wrote: | | I would be interested in hearing from you, what the SCA and you have done when you have had injuries too? |
In theory, we report all serious injuries to our central body, so a body of data can be gathered. I say in theory because I think this probably only happens about 50% of the time and probably only in the larger groups.
In NZ the SCA is in the interesting situation of having adopted a turn-key sport-fighting ruleset. The ruleset already had 30 years of evolution and literally millions of fights of testing before we even started using it. When I first started SCA combat, I thought that the rules were a bit over the top, but now that I have 12 years experience using them I agree with pretty much every rule we have. They're all there for good reasons.
The vast majority of "injuries" I see are bruises on the shoulders and hips. This is considered "normal" in the SCA and if people want to avoid them they can wear more armour. At the heavier end of "normal injuries" would be heavy bruising on the ribcage which usually means you have trouble sleeping comfortably for a couple of days. Again, more armour is the solution.
I've seen two bad concussions in 12 years caused by being hit and several from people falling hard (running backwards, tripping over and hitting your head is probably the most common cause of concussion in the SCA).
Usually when there is an injury it's caused by ill fitting armour or armour that doesn't quite meet the rule requirements. It's very very rare that people get a serious injury if their armour meets the rule requirements, fits and is in good condition. Ill fitting armour can be a real curse when you're fighting because it can chaff and rub and cause irritation.
The main thing that I have done personally to reduce injury is to maintain several full sets of loaner armour that I can put people in until they have armour of their own. These suits are specifically built to be flexable in what sizes they will fit (coats of plates etc) and cover almost all the legal target areas, not just the SCA minimum armour requirements.
Another interesting aspect of SCA injuries is that they are often cumulative. Unlike steel weapons, where a slip may put a sword through someones arm, we tend to get a series of heavy strikes on a location that causes bruising and swelling. An example would be someone who takes 10-20 blows to their right shoulder over the course of a couple of days training and maybe they do this for several months. This can cause an accumulation of scar tissue and eventual joint damage if the fighter ignores the problem.
In this instance, I tend to try and talk people into armouring any locations they find are carrying an injury caused by being hit too often. They usually don't need too much encouragement 
Pretty much every time I see a major injuries it just reinforces that we need to make sure we're not being too casual with following the rules.
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A book may be able to teach you something of fighting, but it can't cover your back when the shield wall breaks up! |
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Colin
Location: Wellington
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| Posted: Fri Oct 12, 2007 2:29 pm |
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| Inigo wrote: | | I'm just interested to see if groups change how they approach what they're doing if people are injured. |
I'm pretty much an advocate of the sentiment expressed in your signature "Eight out of ten swords agree; armour protects better than rules". So far we've avoided anything remotely serious. A few trivial injuries and that's about it. I think a pulled muscle is the most serous injury.
(Though when I did re-enactment I suffered numerous injuries. The worst has always prompted me to tell students to complete throws so they don't suffer from dislocated knees and the like by being nice to people.)
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The person who writes for fools is always sure of a large audience.
- Arthur Schopenhauer
See http://www.swordsmanship.co.nz/ |
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Oskar der Drachen
Location: Masterton
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| Posted: Sat Oct 13, 2007 11:38 am |
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Hi All.
Oskar der Drachen, 12+ years SCA experience.
I have a specific incedent that I'll relate after this. Principally though what I have seen in the way of accidents boils down to...
"Somebody not following the rules of engagement."
Injury. A broken forearm, clean break.
The fellow that got broken suffered from an overabundace of Bravado, and not nearly enough training/brains. Pennsic, open field battle, two sheild walls facing each other. Subject runs through the shield wall, collecting hits on the way, and should have been dead. Chose not to be, he then challenges a pole-arm weilding Master-at-Arms known to me. He tries to block a pole-arm shot to the center top of his head with his arm (probably tried to intercept with his sword, but missed) arm came between his helm and the pole, Snap.
Solution: Short Marshall's Court, subject of break disciplined, and sent for retraining in the rules of engagement. Note made that the shot with the pole-arm might have been harder than normal calibration, but judged to be within standards of behaviour, and "educational" in intent. No discipline recommended.
I have seen minor injuries of various sorts that have resulted from faulty, or mis-used equipment, but by far it comes down to training. I've not tried steel, but SCA fighting is the safest contact sport I know about, barring some forms of non-lethal marshal arts.
I'm a good fighter, but I wouldn't play steel because my training is wrong. I'd hurt somebody. That just goes round in a cirlcle to my first point though, standard rules of engagement, well rehersed, keep people safe. |
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HanSagan
Location: New Zealand
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| Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2007 8:52 pm |
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Worst one I saw was way back in the day when Sword and Shield used to train in the domain. A simultaneous double lunge resulting in a sword tip entering a persons mouth and exiting their cheek. Ouch 
_________________
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http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=hansagan |
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huscarl
Location: in the back of your mind
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| Posted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 1:24 pm worse |
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well if any recall the firt pohonga Nama their was the flying sword that flew over my head and smack bang into the Drows mouth taking out teeth which is why he now has such a great smile looked a lot worse than it was in the end but a good way to get the blood flowing
Hail Fraja.
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hail Fraja. |
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Njal
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
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| Posted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 10:14 pm |
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I have had my right eye stabbed, my left and right 1st knuckle broken and split, my 4th metacarpal on the left hand broken, I also have several knuckles that have lumps or bits with no feeling and countless upon countless bruises and bone lumps. I have also been stabbed in the throat hard enough to lump and affect my voice for the weekend and had several teeth hits luckily without loss of any.
Without any doubt injuries have been caused by insufficient hand protection and the eye injury a true fluke
I try to harden up and learn not to get hit there again. Maybe once or twice I may even have stopped fighting to get an ice pack on it. |
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Scott
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| Posted: Sat Nov 10, 2007 6:08 pm |
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| Njal wrote: | I have had my right eye stabbed, my left and right 1st knuckle broken and split, my 4th metacarpal on the left hand broken, I also have several knuckles that have lumps or bits with no feeling and countless upon countless bruises and bone lumps. I have also been stabbed in the throat hard enough to lump and affect my voice for the weekend and had several teeth hits luckily without loss of any.
Without any doubt injuries have been caused by insufficient hand protection and the eye injury a true fluke
I try to harden up and learn not to get hit there again. Maybe once or twice I may even have stopped fighting to get an ice pack on it. |
Exacerbation of an existing injury through neglect, be it due to ignorance, idiocy or machoistic fervour, can have long reaching effects in your life.
There will always be other fights, and other battles, so leaving the field if you feel you must holds no shame whatsoever.
Just a thought... |
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Robbo
Location: In the Tree's
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| Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 12:24 pm |
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The majority of my injuries have been through bad luck more than anything else.
The teeth knocked out was an exception...the poor guy got frustrated and shouldn't have been using case long sword anyway...rules were toughened up a fair bit, that combo was banned iirc. Think we also started recommending full faced helms or chain at that point too.
The sword through the cheek and exiting just shy of my eye was bad luck...Carl and I both lunged at the same time (moral: Don't lunge against a long sword when you only have a short sword)...Carl and I agreed to be a bit calmer next time...great fight though
The bleeder to my chin was my fault, I was training someone why they should hit you & not follow the sword...she followed the sword and hit me in the face. 
The thrust to the face that almost took out my left eye and left me with no feeling in 1/4 of my face for a year was ummm...fun. Never really did get a resolution there.
In at least one case, the fault as been all mine and I've endeavoured to improve in the areas I was lacking. In other cases, we've either attempted to imporve training standards and/or minimal protective equipment. Worst cases, we've banned the problem makers.
My favourites for dorks were the guys here in Hamilton who thought it would be perfectly ok to fight at 100% power and speed...as long as you/they were wearing the required 1mm full plate armour (they'd apparently found proof for).
100% nutters. Oddly, they changed their minds on the idea when we started arguing, amongst ourselves, over who we were going to let fight them with a dagger...we'd already ruled anything bigger/heavier out for fear of damagaing them too much.  |
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Inigo
Location: Auckland
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| Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 1:18 pm |
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| Robbo wrote: | | The majority of my injuries have been through bad luck more than anything else. |
How many of your injuries would have been entirely avoided by wearing a fencing mask?
_________________
A book may be able to teach you something of fighting, but it can't cover your back when the shield wall breaks up! |
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Robbo
Location: In the Tree's
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| Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2007 2:38 pm |
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My facial injuries? Perhaps as much as 1/2.
The blow that took out 2 teeth would still have gotten through a fencing mask, as the blow wasn't pulled. Neither was the one that nearly took my eye.
The cut from my student and the one from Carl would likely have been stopped by such a mask. |
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Glen
Location: Matakana
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| Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 8:06 pm |
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MMM from my own personal experience I would have to say that nearly all of the injuries I have suffered ( and yes there was a few) would have to come down to one person...ME.
Yes there have been incidences where someone seems to have taken a dislike to me ...why little old me? I have no idea  But as I look back I can't think of too many where the person I was fighting had much of a chance in stopping me from trying to impale myself on their weapon.
Except of course for Hadrian. |
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