The definition of WMA and its relationship to Sports etc.

[Phil Berghan-Whyman]

A question was raised re the relationship of Western Martial Arts (WMA) to Asian Martial Arts (AMA), reenactment and sports (e.g. olympic fencing, karate, judo etc). This thread is intended for discussion of this idea.

BROADLY SPEAKING: WMA is a developing body that combines historical research with attempts to physically recreate the fighting systems of medieval Europe.

AMAs
WMA and AMAs mostly share the professed goal of learning to fight with realistic technique and intent, though they differ in that WMA does not claim a lineage of instructors dating back to the founders of Western fighting systems (the reality of the claims of antique origins for many AMAs are often dubious, but not important to the point I am trying to make here). Some AMAs are run for financial gain and have developed into sports systems which place tournement fighting and performance for spectators above the practice of realistic fighting. In this respect WMA instructors (generally) are intent on understanding and redeveloping lost European martial arts, and in maintaining their integrity as a historiographic practice. (Disclaimer: not all AMAs are impracticle and/or lack integrity, and sports/demonstration fighting does require skill and practice).

REENACTMENT
WMA differs from reenactment in a number of ways, the most important here in NZ being the difference in focus. Reenactment combat is about safe enjoyable combat, and though comparitive levels of historical accurancy differ. It is fair to say that realistic technique must suffer because realisitic techniques were designed to kill people, and killing your friends is bad form (even when they perform some silly technique and hit you on the fingers). Reenactment requires its own set of skills and techniques that can flourish with attention and practice.

SPORT
WMA could broadly be classified as a sport, as it is a pursuit with an athletic character engaged in for enjoyment and recreation (OED referenced for definition). WMA has an intellectual as well as a physical aspect (which other sports also share at a professional and competitive level). I'd agree with WMA being a sport with the disclaimer that 'just because it is a sport, does not mean that its practices are therefore able to be engaged in without attention to safety and to the dangers inherent in using weapons and fighting techniques. Just as a head high rugby tackle can permanantly injure, so can a careless sword blow or wrestling technique.

WMA could cetainly go the way of other professional sports; however this would require the art to become less lethally focused, and hence to lose its professed goal of being a realistic treatment of historical techniques. Just as Judo removed many of the lethal and crippling techniques from Ju Jitsu, so Sports WMA would have techniques for the same reason. My opinion is that this would be a shame and really a derailing of WMA as it currently stands.

Thats by 2 cents.

[Colin]

[knight of magdalene]

[Phil Berghan-Whyman]

Protective kit is all good, however I believe that the levels of power and the lethality of intent behind properly formed and delivered strikes is beyond the capacity of armour to fully protect people.

If you examine SCAs heavy fighting then you see hi impact blows being thrown and sufficiently absorbed by armour, so that no real injury is likely; however, SCA fighters only throw blows in their mid-power range and with two handed weapons avoid sweeping arcs that would overpower their shots. This is because they understand the limitations of armoured protection and want to avoid serious concussive injuries. The SCA also prohibits the use of wrestling techniques, again due to the chance of injury.

Having done some of Fiore's wrestling techniques, I can reasonably say that wearing armour would be of limited use against some of those techniques. I think in particular of techniques designed to break a persons neck or back through rapid dislocation of vertebrae.

I have no doubt that high density foams and high impact plastics would significantly reduce the number of injuries, but anything goes combat is still out of the question. Certain techniques could not be allowed in open assault, and therefore the results are skewed away from reality into the realm of sports (playing to the rules).

Finally, the type of equipment being suggested would be fantastic as an aid to training and to allow the assault to be practiced, but one needs to realise that safe fully-realistic full-speed no holds barred WMA combat is likely impossible.

[Phil Berghan-Whyman]

Happy to concede those points Colin.

[Colin]

If done correctly, fully-realistic full speed, almost no holds barred WMA combat is possible (IMHO). The problem arises when people panic and are stricken by fear. One of the mistakes is to let people assault far too early in their training. The correct defences are not used...they start trying to block or turn their heads to flee. Neither tactic works (unless you're Cobb for the latter). Competence in the principles of the system must be achieved before taking up the assault.

I've got a Victorian book on stick fighting in which the author exhorts instructors not to spare lessons in pain on their students (I forget the exact wording). Essentially it forces the students to get their defences against the particular offences correct in drills before they take up the assault.

However I'm taking a multi-prong approach to the whole assault. There are assaults with shinai with little protection. Shinai will sting, and it can even drive the mesh of fencing masks back onto the wearer (leaving a nice mesh pattern on the face), but it rarely does anything worse. I'm interested in upping the stakes with something like wooden wasters (or aluminium) with padded protection, and finally steel with the full monty. All three have their defects. Shinai bounce horribly, wooden wasters don't move through air correctly, and steel is unforgiving should you stuff up.

I should point out, like parrying, armour (and shields) should be used for deflection, and not blocking. Blocking just causes the armour to deform horribly, as I proved with Nick down in Wellington. His armour compromised, my attack did not.

If I ever get my book finished, I hope to put down all the physics equations pointing out the folly of blocking. I suspect it will cause a furore, but science is on my side

[Phil Berghan-Whyman]

[Colin]

Regarding assaulting and sparring rules, a student produced the following ideas:

http://www.swordsmanship.co.nz/forums/viewtopic.php?t=159

Out of curiousity are you lot down in Wellington trying to integrate some medieval HEMA techniques into re-enactment combat? I'd be curious to see it some time if you are. While I appreciate the vast majority of techniques target re-enactment illegal areas, it would be interesting to see what you lot have synthesised.

I seem to have been responsible for a conversion in SCA rapier up here

[quentin]

To be REALLY pedantic - what we do at events isn't strictly reenactment anyway.

Reenactment means to recreate the events of a specific time & place.
(to: act out events)

So, we would have to define the days combat as (eg) " a small scirmish on the left flank of the route march of King Henry X's advance on the city of Y in 1503, March". If we defined a specific battle then we would have to define sides and the correct side would always win. Correct period weopons only, and period tactics and command stucture would be used.
Hobbists do this at Battle Abbey near Hastings every year and the Normans always win. (often with much difficulty! )

That's not what we do.

I don't know quite how to describe what we do do (martial play in costume?) but I certainly wouldn't ever call it WMA either!

TOLD YOU I was being pedantic !!






(we do have WMA practitioners in NZ - you know who you are! but as you all know you can't truely do WMA properly at eg NAAMA...much as a few dead bodies might be an improvement ! )

[Chevalier]

Hi Quentin,

thanks for writing this first - I felt like pointing out the same obvious (?) fact! I guess we in New Zealand tend to use the term 're-enactment' a bit less specific that in its original meaning (Collinwood, anyone?)..

[Colin]

[Colin]