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Hadrian
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 Posted: Tue May 27, 2008 11:45 pm exploring western military martial arts |
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| The contents of this post were removed at authors request - Admin |
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Hadrian
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| Posted: Wed May 28, 2008 2:57 pm western martial arts from a millitary perspective |
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| The contents of this post were removed at authors request - Admin |
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Gerard Kraay
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| Posted: Wed May 28, 2008 3:13 pm |
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I believe he is going on about Geoff Tank Tod from Tod Group http://www.schoolofselfdefence.com/default.htm
It’s a very good system of CQB, Tank is a fantastic teacher and person to train with and talk to.
I trained with them years ago, out south Auckland with one of the groups Instructors, They really only can trace their linage to William Fairbairn
http://www.schoolofselfdefence.com/european-close-combat.htm
And Geoff Tank Tod is ex SAS I belive, here is his background.
http://www.schoolofselfdefence.com/todd-close-combat.htm
I talked to him a few years ago, and he makes no claim to enduring lineage, and has no historical knowledge of Historical European Martial Arts, from a sword fighting background.
Any one who want to train with this group can get in contact directly, its not mysterious or even unknown.
In fact to those of us involved with HEMA its kind of boring.
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"The Dragon made me do it." |
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Nathan
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| Posted: Wed May 28, 2008 5:38 pm |
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Geoff Tod currently instructs the Army esp 1st NZSAS Group on CQB. It is a very effective system that is taylored to the modern combatant. Many of their techniques are designed for use while still wearing your full pack (30-45kg).
From the couple of courses that I did with him, his main 2 strike zones are the head (namely eyes and throat) and the knee. Little targeting was done to the torso.
If you ever get a chance to go to his school in Dunedin, jump nae leap headlong at the chance it is well worth it.
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Paper, Scissors, Poleaxe |
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Colin
Location: Wellington
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| Posted: Wed May 28, 2008 7:02 pm |
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Yes, Geoff makes no claim to Western martial arts. His martial arts background and lineage are spelled out already in one of Gerard's links (which is quite impressive). That lineage goes back to Fairbairn in WWII combatives. For a while I pondered whether Fairbairn's method could be considered a Western martial art, but Fairbairn himself makes it quite clear (Get Tough)that the bulk of his method is a mixture of Japanese (jujitsu), Chinese (boxing) and with a lot of street fighting from all over the place. IOW it isn't WMA. Fairbairn is the basis for those that followed (including Colonel Applegate).
As Nathan says he offers training in Dunedin.
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The person who writes for fools is always sure of a large audience.
- Arthur Schopenhauer
See http://www.swordsmanship.co.nz/ |
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Hadrian
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| Posted: Wed May 28, 2008 10:53 pm |
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| The contents of this post were removed at authors request - Admin |
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Guest
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| Posted: Thu May 29, 2008 4:10 pm |
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I have been informed tank is bloody good.
I have freind who's an army medic and the 1st level of CQB instructor-ness in the north island he goes for his 2nd level (of 3) soon, so i score it free and wouldnt bother going to the south unless i wanted to qualify as an instructor.
Although definitly a great place to go for martial arts self defense training, tank wouldnt be able to help you doing medieval weapons combat nor would he ever claim to be medieval/historical or european acurate. CQB is an art of brutal efficiency , nor historical accuracy or heritage |
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Hadrian
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| Posted: Thu May 29, 2008 6:56 pm Respect and honour |
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| The contents of this post were removed at authors request - Admin |
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Colin
Location: Wellington
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| Posted: Thu May 29, 2008 9:41 pm CQB |
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| Hadrian wrote: | | If you believe this linage goes only back to ww2 where suddenly from thin air all the footwork and movement appeared - you are mistaken - these practices are a direct descendant of the styles on Trajan’s column - have reference to the dusty old books etc - this (humble) European martial arts master is the real thing with the linage. Geoff is a very busy man so please don’t harass him. |
From Get Tough (preface) by Major W.E. Fairbairn
"The methods described in this book I have carefully worked out and developed over a period of many years. They owe something to the famous Japanese judo (jiu-jutso), and something else to Chinese boxing. But, largely, they were developed from my own experience and observation of how most effectively to deal with the ruffians, thugs, bandits, and bullies of one of the toughest areas in the world."
The area in the world he is referring to is Shanghai, China (also from the preface of Get Tough).
From Combat use of the double-edged fighting knife by Colonel Rex Applegate, p.1,2
"After training and close association with both W.E. Fairbairn and E.A. Sykes while assigned to the OSS in 1943, this writer was ordered to duty...The purpose of the assignment was to organize and direct the Combat Section of this new center, where intensive close-quarter armed and unarmed combat instruction was the training mission...We evaluated practically all of the world's knife-fighting techniques with single and double edged blades; however, nothing evolved superior to the basic Fairbairn-Sykes technique with the double edged knife."
So again, one of the main pioneers of CQB credits Fairbairn.
A former CQB instructor of the NZSAS, Mark V. Lonsdale, CQB: A Guide to Unarmed Combat and Close Quarter Shooting
"STTU's unarmed combat techniques are a combination of several fighting styles with a foundation in Shotokan Karate, Judo and Aikido."
There's a lot to admire about CQB, but the founders don't credit it to earlier European systems. If they did then names like Colonel Biddle of WWI fame would be listed. Incidentally Biddle taught a combination of savate, jujitsu, classical "civilian" fencing and bayonet "civilian" fencing. Just throwing that in since supposedly "civilian" and "military" martial arts differed. Not that Biddle was unique in that regard. The Angelos taught "civilian" fencing to the British military (army and navy) as another example  Of course one could wax lyrical about Captain Alfred Hutton, but that's just overkill.
While Geoff Todd is hardly on my list of people I regular talk to, I have had numerous conversations with him. He does not make claims to Western martial arts. He has an interest in a lot of different martial arts (including Western martial arts), but that does not mean he is practitioner of every single one of them either. Geoff is surprisingly easy to talk to as he sells martial arts equipment as well as being the editor of Fight Times.
_________________
The person who writes for fools is always sure of a large audience.
- Arthur Schopenhauer
See http://www.swordsmanship.co.nz/ |
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Hadrian
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| Posted: Fri May 30, 2008 12:03 am Re: CQB |
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| The contents of this post were removed at authors request - Admin |
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Colin
Location: Wellington
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| Posted: Sat Jun 07, 2008 8:01 pm |
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I've removed the incendiary posts in this thread.
Unless proof is offered that CQB is a Western martial art this entire thread will be deleted. I'd normally allow such topics to slide here, but this one has caused a certain amount of trolling. This will not be tolerated.
Quotes have been made from the fathers of CQB which state quite openly an Oriental foundation for it. Added to this has been later CQB instructors who also have relied on their Oriental martial arts background. As such the burden of proof is on those that claim CQB is a Western martial art. Whether you believe CQB is such is irrelevant. What is required is proof.
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The person who writes for fools is always sure of a large audience.
- Arthur Schopenhauer
See http://www.swordsmanship.co.nz/ |
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Hadrian
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| Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 4:53 am What is the intention - on this field of study |
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| The contents of this post were removed at authors request - Admin |
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Colin
Location: Wellington
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| Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 9:01 am |
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Similarity of some elements does not prove CQB is a Western martial art. I've recently become very friendly with a jujitsu sensei of an older form. There are similarities of elements between my unarmed material and his. It doesn't make jujitsu a Western martial art.
Not that this is a first time as one of my former students in Auckland is a jujitsu instructor.
IOW you're going to have to do better than that for proof.
_________________
The person who writes for fools is always sure of a large audience.
- Arthur Schopenhauer
See http://www.swordsmanship.co.nz/ |
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pmel018
Principal Sponsor
Location: Wokingham, near Reading, UK
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| Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 9:17 am |
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Colin
while "western" and "martial" are more or less self explanitory in the context used here, how do you(or anyone else)determine what constitutes "art"
Phil |
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Oskar der Drachen
Location: Masterton
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| Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 2:01 pm |
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Forgive a newb question here?
It would seem to me that a bayonet/long gun combination style would be distinctly Western in it's approach, but I have not seen this type of fighting mentioned in the thread to date.
Is this too modern an style to be included? I was trying to cast my mind back along the historical weeapons fighting I know of, and who were firearms practitioners. I know the East had the beginning of this in gunpowder weapons, but I don't remember seeing any combination of this in a single weapons form in that genre.
Surely since the earliest days of the "modern" gunpowder weapons, this has been a taught school of fighting? Less so since the range and repeating nature of weapons progressed, but for the main part of the firearms span of history this has been a main form of the weapons utility?
With Whom and Where did this school of combat originate? |
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