More interesting Headblow?

[Gerard Kraay]

[Stuart]

Please define this matter of "...changing international standards".
Where is this pressure coming from ? Who is pushing it ?

-it certainly is not from European re-enactors who learnt the hard way that head blows cause injury.

You need to start considering some medical evidence and accident reports.
It`s not a question of "being left behind", you are propoting a practice which is fundimentally irreponsible.

-or are you just being provocative ?

[Gerard Kraay]

[Stuart]

Clearly you are being provocative, but that of little interest to me.
I note that you have not offered any medical evidence of what happens to
those who suffer repeated head-blows and your lack of evidence is
damning. You need to look again. Start by researching "concussion" and brain injury on Google.
if that`s too much effort, then get your WMA mates to hit you acround the head with some of the power blows you appear to support- then test for your ability to solve simple interlectual tasks.
-BTW, the damage is permanant. That`s why boxers are punch drunk.

[Gerard Kraay]

You’re talking a lot of nonsense, and you have no idea what research has been done, your just pontificating from your throne.
So let’s address your ill thought message.

I’m not being provocative, though you’re rude responses are beginning to annoy me, I might not be as polite as before. I have an opinion I would like to be able to discuss on this forum with out your condescension.

My wife works for ACC as a serious injury case manager and she has a particular interest in serious head injury, so through her I have an expert opinion as opposed to your ramblings.

Case and point, sports head injury in this county is primarily rugby related, concussion through tackling errors, and there are hundreds a year, I guess your proposing to ban rugby, good luck with that one.

There is no case history of serious head injury from contact martial arts like ours or related like Kendo or Arnis where weapons and head protection are worn. Comparing sword fighting to boxing to try to justify your opinion is dumb.

I have never talked about HEMA using “power blows” in this posting, your just making it up to push you point of view. I have on the other hand in several posts talked about controlled blows to the head, let me say it again CONTROLED BLOWS, I have capitalised it so you will see the words as you skim read this posting.

In fact based in one of you earlier posts in this discussion are you sure your objection is not just that you don’t want to have to buy another helm?

[Stuart]

-and your art is what ? You have not made that clear.
If you want to batter each other unconscious in the name of WMA, HEMA or whatever, then on your own head be it ( in this case, literally ) .

-my concern is the spreading of this frankly dangerious practice into re-enactment. I also note that the practice of thusting to the helm and heavy lateral blows is regarded as hazardous and a European HEMA website specifically warns of the strong possibility of serious vertibral damage. I shall post the url as a reference.

As for my opinions ? , They are based on a lifetime of solid experience.
You forget some of us have been where you are 25-30 years ago. We did actually find out the hard way that somethings ( like power headblows or head thrusts ) are a very bad idea.

As for accidents. Of course people get hurt in the martial arts. My old kendo club and sabre club used to have accidents. But what you are suggesting can only work to maximise an accident. Go ask a medical doctor about the effects of your idea ... For that matter, try getting insurance for your club !

For your information I have sufficient helms for all periods. What I do not have ( and do not want ) is to be forced to wear layers of steel bars and metal mesh in re-enactment combat because some dot want to play uncontrolled head-blow. We have enough rules and regulations. We do not need any more.
Re-enactment work fine as it is.

[griff]

you know the only problem with some of the debates on this forum is the lack of a tone of voice, i know those little face doofers are there but does anyone really look at them, there also doesnt seem to be one for sarcastic which is how some comments can sound when in fact they are not.
anyway back to topic
there is in my opinion only one way to safley do head blow with steal weapons and the minimum head protection of a bowl and a nasal, and that is straight down to the crown, it can be from any side ie: front back side, but only to the crown. if you start doing other shots what is going to happen is joe blow and blow joes are in the thick of it and joe blows group does decaps and thrusts where as blow joes group do not ,but they all do "head blow" someone is going to get hurt. I have know doubt that one day in the nz movement there will be a serious head injury of some kind , (more than a whack in the teeth) but if you start doing crazy decap shots and the like, it will happen sooner rather that later,

[Stuart]

This is the reference for my last post.

http://www.hema.freehomepage.com/sparringhelm.htm

I agree with Griff.

[David]

Here is an article I retrieved form the British Medical Journal (BMJ). It deals with football players heading footballs - which may be very repetitive.

Interesting is the accepted minimum force to cause a sports related head injury is 40g - I maintain that a well CONTROLLED head strike (I think the use of head BLOW is counter-productive as it implies uncontrolled, excessive force) performed by a suitably TRAINED and DISCIPLINED practitioner will generate force much less that 40g.

Of course there are almost infinite variables and certainly the risk of traumatic brain injury (TBI) is increased with increased age, sex, genetic predisposition and previous medical history etc. but then all of medicine is based upon norms and acceptable risk.

I found another journal article that suggested that a cervical (neck) collar could minimise the incidence of TBI because it stabilised the cervical spine and therefore decreased the shearing forces transmitted to the central nervous system during whiplash incidents (hence their use in motorsport) so maybe something similar might be useful for those who are worried.

At the end of the day it all boils down to personal comfort and choice - if you don't like head strike combat then don't engage in it. If your risk factors are higher then don't engage in it. If you are not trained well enough or are not disciplined enough then don't engage or if you are approached by someone you feel is not trained or disciplined enough refuse to fight them.

As a final word - football players aren't wearing helmets - we are so a suitable well designed, full head helmet is going to be of vital importance...



BMJ 2003;327:351-352 (16 August), doi:10.1136/bmj.327.7411.351
Editorial
Brain injury and heading in soccer

Head to ball contact is unlikely to cause injury but head to head contact might

Whether repeated concussive or subconcussive blows cause permanent or cumulative brain injury is a complex and controversial question. Press coverage highlighted the case of Jeff Astle, a former England international football player, where the coroner ruled the cause of his death as an "industrial disease"—suggesting that repeated heading of balls during his professional career was the cause of his subsequent neurological decline.1 This case was at odds with that of Billy MacPhail, a former Glasgow Celtic player, who in 1998 lost a legal battle to claim benefits for dementia that he said was due to heading the old style leather footballs. Concern has been raised over whether heading in soccer may be the basis for injury and cognitive impairment, and in the United States this has led to calls advocating the use of protective headgear for soccer players.

Soccer players don't just head the ball; their heads can collide with each other, and players in positions where heading is common are also more likely to have head to head collisions more often. Although uncommon, most concussive injuries seen in soccer derive from such head to head rather than ball to head contact.2

Heading a soccer ball results in head accelerations of less than 10 g (or less than 1000 rad/s2) whereas the minimum values for the development of sport related concussion are 40-60 g (or 3500-5000 rad/s2).3 4 In contrast, head to head contact can generate enough of the forces required to cause brain injury as in any conventional head injury. Recent biomechanical research has found that commercially available soft helmets fail to reduce even this degree of head trauma to a safe level, which implies that these helmets have only a limited protective role in this setting.5

There is no evidence that sustaining several concussions over a sporting career will necessarily result in permanent damage.6 Research on experimental animals provides some supporting evidence against the concept that recurrent concussive injuries alone cause permanent damage. In studies of experimental concussion, animals have been subjected to repeated concussion 20-35 times in a two hour period. Despite the unusually high number of injuries no residual or cumulative effect was shown.7

Can repeated subconcussive trauma such as might be seen in heading the ball cause a cumulative neurological injury in this setting? Although this was indicated by early retrospective studies, more recent studies have not supported this idea.8-10

In a series of retrospective studies including retired Scandinavian soccer players, cognitive deficits were noted.11 12 The results of these studies are flawed, with appreciable methodological problems. These problems include the lack of pre-injury data, selection bias, failure to control for acute head injuries, lack of blinding of observers, and inadequate controls. The authors conclude that the deficits noted in these former soccer players were explained by repetitive trauma such as heading the ball. However, the pattern of deficits seen is equally consistent with alcohol related brain impairment—a confounding variable that was not controlled for.

Matser et al from the Netherlands have also implicated both concussive injury and heading as a cause of neuropsychological impairment in both amateur and professional soccer players.2 13 Reanalysis of the data from these papers, however, indicates that purposeful heading may not be a risk factor for cognitive impairment.14

Prospective controlled studies using clinical examination, neuroimaging, or neuropsychological testing have failed to find any evidence of cognitive impairment in soccer players.8-10

We do not know for certain whether heading the ball in soccer may result in chronic cognitive impairment. It seems unlikely that subconcussive impacts such as seen in head to ball contact will cause chronic neurological injury. Although head to head contact may cause concussive injury, it is both uncommon and unlikely to result in cumulative brain injury. It has been speculated from other sports that particular genotypes may place athletes at heightened risk in association with head trauma, although this is yet to be validated in other studies.15

For football players the avoidance of exposure to brain injury is important, although currently there are few means by which this may be achieved. Most head to head contact is inadvertent, and coaching techniques and visual perception training may help in a few cases but are unlikely to eliminate this problem entirely. Soft shell helmets or head protectors currently do not have the biomechanical capability to prevent concussive trauma and hence cannot be recommended.

Paul R McCrory, research fellow

Centre for Sports Medicine Research and Education, Brain Research Institute, University of Melbourne, Parkville, Victoria 3054, Australia (pmccrory@compuserve.com)

Competing interests: None declared.

References
<Snipped>

[Gerard Kraay]

[PopTart]

It seems to me that the primary focus of all involved in this discussion is safety. We 're just coming at it from different directions.

I've just been rereading most of the thread, and I can appreciate where Stuart is coming from. Njal, it may have been 20 years ago, but if you had been involved in the serious head injury of another, when it wasn't intended, how do you think you'd feel about it? If he seems to be coming across as a bit of a doom preacher on the topic, then by the gods, he has a damn good reason.

Having said that, I think Griff made a good point about the lack of vocal tone. I think we should all try and be less reactive when posting and more reflective?

Blackcrow isn't advocating uncontrolled blows to the head btw. He has repeatedly made reference to correct training and equipment. It follows on that if you don't have either, you're not allowed to play! I still personally feel that the strikes asked about by Victorius at the start of this thread are far too dangerous to employ in either standard NAAMA combat, or in the current head blow that is being used either. As a display using individuals with enough training AND the right protective gear? Fine. They know what they are doing, and we can all enjoy the spectacle.

Bear in mind, Victorius (to me at least anyway) looked like he merely wished to open up the discussion, not that he actually advocates doing such things as a mainstream and blanket change to how we "fight". At least, I hope that's the case...

[Scott]

I asked my girlfriend of eight years, who is a medical doctor currently working as a GP, what she thought of the damage potentials of head blow combat from a controlled strike. Not "an uncontrolled head-blow from some dolt".

Anyway, after demonstrating a controlled strike she said that even without a helmet such a blow would only be harmful if it hit an eye, an ear, or went into the mouth and got the soft palette.

My strike was to "tap".

OK, now the contention will be that such a blow was inadequate. Frankly, a tap on the head in a helmet or fencing mask is clearly audible and unmistakably a hit unless you're one of the handful of egotistical hazard-vectors who cheat in combat.

We know that a tap system is not consistent with observed results as some people like to ignore hits "they can't feel" (this is cheating), some people have to win at all costs (this is egotism) and some people just don't care if they hurt their opponent (this is just bat shit fucking loco). That is why we take additional safety precautions.

I was going to say more but I realised what I wrote was just being contumacious, so I'll just settle with this "friendly" advisory:

When you lash out with an aggressive response to a post YOU CLEARLY DID NOT READ then you, along with everything you have to say, suddenly lose credibility.

[Nathan]

Here, here Scott. couldn't agree with you more.

[PopTart]

Well said Scott!

It's William posting here by the way. How are you and Paul both doing?

Anyways, back to the topic:

Handy having a GP to call on for professional advice on the matter. Anybody else got any qualified friends/partners who they could ask about it? That way it should cover most of the macho posters when they try to type things like: "Hit us as hard as you like cause we're HAAAAAARD! *pant* *pant* (sounds of slobber, breaking rawhide, and splintering ply!)"

The above is of course an exaggerated example. I hope no one has posted anything like that... except maybe Snorri... but he's mad anyway... Hi Sam!

[Scott]

Try having a medical professional around when you're genuinely sick. My last cold I got a fever of 39.7 or something, not *too* high but not in the happy zone either. What does Helen do? Taunts me for three days, finally takes my temperature then acts all aggrieved that I should be so inconsiderate as to *actually* be ill.

Presumably some people out there are in loving relationships where their partners shower them in medicine, massages, sympathy and hot pole-dancing medieval cosplay when they are unwell.

There's no justice, I tell ya...

**edited in**

Oh yeah, and when SHE'S sick what happens? She writes her own prescription and then sends me on a high-speed journey through the horrors of the Auckland SH1 just so I can get to the chemist in this *one* hospital before it shuts for the night.

There really is no justice